The Extra Shot: Just Be a Good Hang
August 6, 2026
Welcome to The Extra Shot, our bonus episodes where it's just Cait and Jenna, no guest, and the inside thoughts fully become outside thoughts.
This one started with an Amy Poehler Good Hang clip about TV writing and spiraled into our whole theory of everything: talent is a dime a dozen, so the thing that actually sets you apart is being someone people want in the room. Easy to work with. Cool. Chill. A good hang. We talk about why that's true for authors, editors, podcasters, honestly anyone in the arts, and why we'll bump a book to the top of our TBR the second we fall in love with the human who wrote it (hi, Julie Murphy).
Whether you went trad and came back to indie, or went indie and are eyeing trad, we want the tea. Slide into our DMs.
Booking a Limelight or Book Break is also, apparently, how you get Jenna to make your content. That's the whole secret.
In This Episode
The good hang thesis, and why moderate talent plus kindness beats brilliance plus bad vibes
Limelight and Book Break episodes: what they are, why they're booking up fast, and how to grab a spot (yes, they can be about your editing, PR, cover design, or illustration services too, not just books)
Trad vs indie, and why you're allowed to do both. Cait's querying this fall AND indie publishing the next one. Diversify the portfolio, figuratively and literally
The great editing debate: dev edit vs copy edit, when a manuscript is actually ready to hand off, and why a high-expectations genre like fantasy might call for a developmental editor from the start
Our ever-growing TBR guilt, reading on 2x speed, and the impossible task of finding time to read for fun when every book we feature is genuinely that good
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Cait (00:05)
just watching like a clip on Good Hang and I like reposted it because it was so good. But it was with like a T V writer. yeah.
Jenna G Judith (00:16)
nice.
Cait (00:17)
So cool. But it was like such a good point where Amy Poehler was saying, like, what people don't realize about TV writing is that like you just have to be like
Somebody that people want to hang out with. Like somebody that people want in the room. And the person's like, yeah, like you have to be chill and be cool. And I'm like, that's how it should be for everything.
Jenna G Judith (00:44)
Yes
Wow Yes
Cait (00:48)
Like you just have to be
somebody people want to work with and have around all the time because you spend so much time together. But that's like across the board how I feel about anything is just like you should be like a person people want to be around. Like I think that's what the secret to success is, is like at least moderate talent, but more just like, I wanna hang out with that person and be around them and work with them.
We're hoping we're just a good hang.
Jenna G Judith (01:16)
We're well w I'm hoping I'm a good hang. If if Amy Poehler would
Cait (01:19)
Halter.
Jenna G Judith (01:20)
ever call me a good hang, I would like faint.
But that that's really all it is, is like you just want to be a person that others want to spend time with. And once you get over that, over like that fear of what are others gonna think of me? Like what am I gonna say the wrong thing? Insert a hundred different reasons why you don't do that. But I know as authors we're all kind of just a little funky and a
unique and unique little flowers, but I'd just be kind to one another and people will want to read your shit. That's it!
Cait (02:00)
Yeah, and work with you. And I feel like that that's like the thing in the arts. It's because writers are a dime a dozen, actors are a dime a dozen, musicians can be a dime a dozen. Like everybody is like interchangeable, right? Like we all wanna think our work is special, but like at those levels where you're trying to get like anybody's interchangeable. So like the the thing that's gonna set you apart is whether you are cool and chill, easy to work with
Or not?
Jenna G Judith (02:29)
Yeah.
We have noticed so many great books out there, but the authors that we connect with, I will always like put their book like top of my TBR any day. I will even do a reread if I love someone that much when like I talk to them or like follow them and they are a quality human being, like Julie Murphy, perfect example. Really incredible person.
Cait (02:53)
My gosh, so many people we've
had. Yeah, so many people we've had. Cause like, yeah, I'm way more interested in following you, going to your events. Like that takes a lot for like to leave your house, go drive somewhere, go to the event, purchase stuff at the event. Like that, you need to have people who are like truly committed to wanting to go be around you or like listen to you. And that takes
somebody who's who's cool and chill and and is a good hang for sure.
Jenna G Judith (03:24)
But like on the flip side, it's very obvious like, they're a shitty person. I don't wanna read their shit.
You're like, they don't really have much of a personality, ew.
Cait (03:33)
I don't wanna honestly I don't I'm gonna be real
candid and honest on these bonus episodes that are just the two of us when we get to do them.
Jenna G Judith (03:44)
Yeah, when it's just the two of us, it whew buddy, the inside thoughts become outside thoughts, where I'm like, probably shouldn't have said that. Yeah.
Cait (03:55)
But it's true, I feel like the people who aren't get hangs, it's it's pretty obvious pretty fast.
Jenna G Judith (04:02)
So limelates are
Cait (04:04)
So Lime Lights.
Jenna G Judith (04:04)
Love doing those. It's so fun to talk to more people, especially like indie authors. Like more indie
Cait (04:11)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna G Judith (04:12)
authors. So big fan. Big fan. Keep coming.
Cait (04:16)
this has been the best
way to like highlight just specifically their books. Like, 'cause I feel like if you
Jenna G Judith (04:21)
Yes.
Cait (04:22)
if you come on for a full episode, we have a specific kind of topic we're hoping to talk about. A lot of times it's related to like the author and their book, and we pull from that, but like a lot of times it's like about scams or about events or like about like different things relating to the industry and experience. So like
For limelights, we are just talking about your book. We want you to sell your book, pitch your book. It is a commercial, fifteen minute commercial for your book. And we never get to do that. So that's been really fun.
Jenna G Judith (04:54)
Yep. No.
even when we talk to the like the on the full episodes, I'm like, yeah, that's right. Like we're you're here to promote your book
Cait (05:06)
The book too. Yeah, and it's
Jenna G Judith (05:05)
Like, whoopsie. Yeah.
Cait (05:08)
that I l I love that, but like it's more of a chat about us and and their experience and us asking questions based on like who they are and all the things that they've done and stuff. But yeah, I love just like promoting indie author books and for listeners to be able to be like, like that sounds super cool. I'm gonna go read that and and highlight those for
People listening. I will say that the limelight episodes are filling up really quick. Just something that we can't scale because we obviously there are so many Thursdays in the year. So there's
Jenna G Judith (05:42)
There's only two of us.
Cait (05:44)
only two of us. they're pretty they're booked up for August. we have maybe two spots in September, and then we have a couple in October as well. And then if you have anything coming out in November, December, even if they're not
Coming out and you just wanna promote your book, like that it doesn't have to be on release day or anything. you know, shoot us a message and we can set something up. Lime Light episodes also don't have to be specifically about books. They can be about author services you provide and you wanna chat about editing, PR. Like I would love to talk to a publicist, honestly, so
Jenna G Judith (06:26)
I'd
like to talk to a book cover designer.
Cait (06:29)
Ooh, that's a good one.
Book cover designers, anything that you're like hoping to chat more about too. that it might take us like another few months to get a book cover designer booked on a full episode and like chat about that and whatever. But like if you were have services you're hoping to promote, book
Jenna G Judith (06:51)
Mm.
Cait (06:51)
breaks are the same little our little book commercials. they can be for editing services, they can be for illustrators, anybody who's
Jenna G Judith (07:01)
Yeah.
Cait (07:02)
Wants to highlight their service in the community.
Jenna G Judith (07:05)
I really enjoy the book breaks because I feel like I'm in like the editing room of like a major TV station putting those together. It sounds so dumb saying it out loud, but like did
Cait (07:19)
It's so true I don't
Jenna G Judith (07:24)
Yeah, I'm ridiculous. I
I'm so excited though to get more of those. And then I will happily make you all the content. If you haven't figured that out yet, I'm the one making all the content, like the designy stuff. So
Cait (07:37)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (07:38)
any any requests, let me know.
Cait (07:42)
I don't know if you want to put yourself out there like that, but
Jenna G Judith (07:44)
Well that's shit. Yeah, probably shouldn't do that. No, I'm gonna protect
myself. I'm gonna protect my time to make you all more content.
Cait (07:52)
It's you
if you want Jenna to make your content, you gotta book a bookbreak or limelight episode. Yep.
Jenna G Judith (07:56)
There you go. That's how you do it.
That's how you get to me. Mm-hmm.
Cait (08:00)
I feel like we're just headed towards people realizing how great it is to to own your own work and publish it on your own terms and stuff like this adds for indie authors doing the same thing that big publishing does is gonna become more popular and like I don't know, just kind of getting yourself out there in these kind of different and creative ways is
is getting more important. So we're really happy to like be able to open up some space for that in the way that the small way that we can. So
Jenna G Judith (08:32)
And we wanna hear like if you if you went trad and you have a story about why you went back to indie
Cait (08:42)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna G Judith (08:44)
spill the tea.
Cait (08:45)
Mmm, it's happening. I just read a sub stack on that, actually. Yes,
Jenna G Judith (08:48)
Slide into my DMs.
Cait (08:51)
there are so many Substacks on this thing. And honestly, like I'm not gonna pretend like I'm not querying this fall.
Jenna G Judith (09:00)
Right? Like, we can do both?
Cait (09:04)
You can do both. That's the thing. I think like after this whole thing, Jenna and I have learned so far, that you can do both. You can do both. And I think some books you just realize are, okay, maybe this is more of like I'm writing a historical fiction I feel like might be more suited for a trad space and maybe not it and maybe there's not as many indie readers that might like this type of book. But then
Once I'm finished with this manuscript, I'm starting on an immediate manuscript that I know I'm going to indie publish. I will not quit
Jenna G Judith (09:36)
Exactly.
Cait (09:37)
I will indie publish the next one.
Jenna G Judith (09:39)
Yeah, you are diversifying your portfolio.
Cait (09:42)
Mm. Mm.
Jenna G Judith (09:44)
Figuratively and literally. Because I
Cait (09:47)
But I'm so glad
you're not like well I'm doing I'm trad and and and like that's like the dream and that's nothing else. Like I used to feel that way. It's so refreshing to not feel that way. Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (09:55)
Isn't that funny? Like
you take the pressure off yourself. You're like every every book has its own journey. I don't care. It's like what are your feelings? What do you want? And if you if you wanna go trad and you're convicted about it
You're getting your book out there. Cool. That's all I care about. And yes.
Cait (10:18)
Do all the things.
Jenna G Judith (10:20)
So yeah, spill the tea on going Trad and then going back to indie. Or spill the tea on going indie and then you're like, Nope, I wanna go back to Trad Because everyone's perspective and like all of your stories are so interesting. and maybe
You'll
hear Cait's journey on how to do that come come next year.
Cait (10:44)
Maybe. If not, I'll have a book coming out next summer.
Jenna G Judith (10:47)
There we go.
Cait (10:48)
Doesn't matter. I I'm pumped about that and guess what? Jenna's gonna have one coming out even before then.
Yeah, get your ads in care. We've talked about this.
Jenna G Judith (11:03)
I
know so okay. When do you know like when you can just give it to an editor? Like when?
Cait (11:13)
Hm, it's a good question.
I think it's
different for everybody. Do you feel like you have you finished your manuscript?
Jenna G Judith (11:19)
No, I haven't finished my rewrite, but I'm I'm trying to keep myself from going back and touching those pages again. Like like I need I need to foc I need like blinders on, I'm getting squirrel moments and I need to focus on finishing it and not going back and touching it because I know when I give it to an editor, they will help me focus my efforts of touching the chapters again.
Magic hands. so yeah, I think if anyone has any suggestions.
Cait (11:56)
Well what kind of editor
are you hoping is it gonna be like a developmental editor at first?
Jenna G Judith (12:03)
I think for I know you said when you did yours you should have just done like a line edit copy edit.
Cait (12:13)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (12:16)
Because this genre has such high expectations, I think I need a like a dev edit.
But I'm nervous because I wanna get it right. Not because I don't think I can, I just wanna get it right.
Cait (12:29)
Yeah, and I think that the editor will help you over that hump. Like just getting the right one and stuff. I think for me the copy edit I should have just done because I think at that point I the story was just already it's a rom comp.
Jenna G Judith (12:42)
The story was done.
Cait (12:43)
The story was done and I was already querying it and I was already getting full requests. I just couldn't get over the hump of like getting to the finish line after the full request. So in my head I was like, I need a dev editor just to tell me that like it's
It's good enough or like the story is working or something. That's all I needed to hear. But in the end, I actually like when I was I decided to self-publish and I was like, like I need a copy editor now. But I just paid all this money for a dev editor just to tell me the story was good enough. I felt like a copy editor could have but I was at the finish line. I was like,
Jenna G Judith (13:17)
That's true.
Cait (13:19)
this is super done. But if you're feeling like you need that extra help now, then like
Jenna G Judith (13:26)
Mm.
Cait (13:27)
Why not start there with the dev editor? I think that's their job is to come in
Jenna G Judith (13:31)
That's true.
Cait (13:32)
earlier.
You know, and you have so many different moving parts and there's so many like you're writing something so complicated. Like I don't think that the same thing that works for rom-com would work is the same advice, you know.
Jenna G Judith (13:46)
I think
you're right. Yeah. I think that's also why I want a dev ev dev editor. so okay, now I n I need to ask you.
Did you read those seven chapters while you were on the plane? God damn.
Cait (14:02)
No, definitely not.
I know. I gotta read it and then we've just had so much reading.
Jenna G Judith (14:09)
So much reading! Okay, so what are you reading for you? Like you said
Cait (14:14)
Me?
Jenna G Judith (14:15)
yeah, you said you were gonna like pick a book and like read something that we weren't like featuring and it was just gonna be like a fun read for you. What you haven't read anything, have you?
Cait (14:26)
No, because then I booked that other author that I got really, really excited about her book, and it's coming out very soon, and I was like, I need to get this girl on. This book looks incredible. And I booked her. Now I'm reading her book and it is incredible. And I'm really glad I talked to her. But it took out that week of like free reading I had. and also with yours, like it is romanticity, and that's like I have to be so present.
Jenna G Judith (14:55)
This is true, you do
You like it's gonna be a stretch for you. But like I said, I just made a map because I like to doodle. You don't need a map to understand.
Cait (15:09)
I know, but it's like with like a rom-com I can like read it while the kids are out playing in the yard and I'm like sitting out there. But with yours and even with this book we're reading this week, it's like I have to be I have to understand what's happening because my brain can can needs to focus a lot. And so I like literally have to find that like perfect moment. But I also, yeah, I really want I haven't read Whistler yet. I wanna read Whistler.
Jenna G Judith (15:36)
It's sitting right there. I wanna read it.
Cait (15:38)
I know me too.
I have all the Emily Rath, I have a Meg and Quinn that just came out just for the plot.
Jenna G Judith (15:46)
Yep.
Yep. I know. Like I got like that whole set of Emily Rath and that's coming tomorrow. my god
Cait (15:52)
It's so beautiful. It's gorgeous.
Jenna G Judith (15:57)
But yeah, I think I need to like read Daggermouth for sure. Like
Cait (16:02)
yeah. I that too.
Jenna G Judith (16:06)
When are we gonna have time?
Cait (16:07)
It's too
I know. And then the fall releases are coming out. And then we have amazing authors
Jenna G Judith (16:11)
my god, the fall releases.
Cait (16:12)
coming in September that the g then I'm gonna have read their books and those are gonna be good and it's yeah, I feel like that that real or like that sound that there's like I'm gonna have to party this weekend and then I'm gonna have another party next weekend and I'm just partying for that's what I feel like right now.
Jenna G Judith (16:32)
Can you please make a reel? Can you make a reel, please?
Cait (16:34)
Ha ha
Jenna G Judith (16:36)
Because that's our life. I'm just like all this
Cait (16:37)
Slipping up the books.
I have to read this one again. I have to read this.
Jenna G Judith (16:40)
And I know, heaven forbid, we're so privil
privileged we get all these great books to read, but it's like
Cait (16:46)
I
got some free books that I have to read.
Jenna G Judith (16:51)
sharks. But
Cait (16:52)
I know, but
it does like take away from the books that you're like, I have to read the Lena Dun I haven't read the Lena Dunham memoir yet. Like I'm and that's like on my list, but there's so many other good books that we have to read.
Jenna G Judith (17:03)
And that I think that's the hardest part is that every single book that we feature on the pod is so frickin' good and you don't want
to just like, you know, breeze through it or like listen to it on like two times speed, which by the way is actually really fun and like you feel like a frickin' energizer bunny. Yep. But you
Cait (17:21)
No, I I do like Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (17:25)
wanna give it the time and the space because it's
Cait (17:27)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (17:27)
so beautiful. Every single one of them.
Cait (17:31)
And I learned so much from from reading each of them from my own work and like my gosh, I was listening to the Read with Jenna podcast where she talks to like Ellen Hil Hildebrand and
Jenna G Judith (17:41)
Mm.
Cait (17:42)
why why this is when I have like my parametopause moments. But what's her name? Jennifer Gardner. And and Jenna Bush-Hager is just like, you know, what's your
Jennifer, what's your favorite book? And she was like, I don't know, what's the last book I've read? Like, it's like every book is a favorite. It's really I don't know.
Jenna G Judith (18:06)
Okay, final question, if you had to pick pick a book from season one that you would love to reread I'm not even gonna say pick your favorite one, but if you like had an opportunity to reread a book from season one, what would what would it be?
Cait (18:20)
my gosh, who was on season one?
I mean this will be fun was really cute. Then we had ho
Jenna G Judith (18:26)
I'm gonna say trope sick.
Cait (18:28)
Ooh, trope sick. Yeah. This will be fun.
Jenna G Judith (18:30)
Like if I could go back and
read that for the very first time again, I a hundred percent would. Like if I had no recollection, I had amnesia, I had perimenopause, and read it again and not know how it ended, absolutely I would. So
Cait (18:45)
Trope stick
was so good. Supper Club Saints. Two.
Jenna G Judith (18:51)
yeah
Cait (18:53)
also Nicole Yvette was on our social media. One and she has her book just came out, the second part of it. Holy shit, those are fucking gorgeous, amazing, incredible indie books.
Jenna G Judith (19:07)
I know.
I haven't had the chance to read her second one yet because I was reading it I was reading the first one on Kindle.
But I got it immediately because I'm like, they're just so pretty. They're just so pretty right next to each other. I trophies. Hands down.
Cait (19:21)
Gorgeous. Mm-hmm. They're beautiful.
Just like also somebody who truly like makes me proud to be an indie author and be in this community. And like I love finding those people where you're just like, that's what it's about. Like that, like, I'm happy to be here because they're doing it too. And like, if they're doing it, then like there's something to this. There's something to this. Like we are building something here because
Yeah, like her books are are amazing too. So like I don't know, we had so many wonderful even really early on in season one we had Susan Poole and her book Out Out of the Crashes really good. yeah, I don't know. Man, that's so hard.
Jenna G Judith (20:04)
Get getting
getting to witness those moments of greatness.
Cait (20:10)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna G Judith (20:11)
When I have done jack shit is really nice.
Cait (20:14)
No, you aren't doing it. Stop it. Get out here. I know.
Jenna G Judith (20:18)
That's true. Fine.
