This YA Debut Reads Like Her 10th Book | Jasmine Smith
August 11, 2026
Featured Guests:
Jasmine Smith
Jasmine Smith is the author of Death Card, a witchy YA fantasy set in New Orleans. A former English major with a love of women's and gender studies, Jasmine writes stories that put teen readers first while quietly threading in tarot, generational family bonds, and the politics of the world her characters actually live in.
What does it take to sell a debut on just ten chapters?
This week, we sit down with debut author Jasmine Smith to talk about Death Card, her New Orleans-set YA fantasy, and the three-year road from first chapters to release week. From writing on deadline for a book packager to bracing for a banned books list, Jasmine shares an honest look at what it means to build a home in a genre she loves.
Jasmine Smith didn't set out to write Death Card.
The idea came from a book packager, and she had to earn it with a writing sample and the first ten chapters.
In this episode, Jasmine joins Jenna and Cait to talk about how that proposal sold to editors, why the finished book reads nothing like a first novel, and how tarot, gentrification, and a grandmother's love all found their way onto the page. The conversation covers the difference between IP and work-for-hire, why her YA contemporary "book of her heart" stalled while Death Card flew, and where she thinks the genre is headed.
For writers, this episode is a candid look at deadlines, developmental edits, and what it actually takes to keep a complex timeline from falling apart.
For readers, it's a behind-the-scenes tour of a debut with gold foil, sprayed edges, and a whole lot to say.
In This Episode
How Death Card sold on proposal, based on only the first ten chapters
What writing IP really means, and how it differs from a flat-fee deal
Why her YA contemporary novel stalled on submission while Death Card sold
Writing the full manuscript in three months, then three rounds of developmental edits
The New Orleans-rooted mother and grandmother relationships at the story's heart
Why she writes for teens first, and where she thinks YA is going
Tarot, spooky season, and reading for the vibes
The cover reveal: Helena Elias, Caitlin Yang, gold foil, and a surprise sprayed-edges email
Why paperback-first releases are becoming the norm in YA
Bracing for a banned books list, and the AI-inspired idea already in her notes app
Death Card
Jasmine Smith
A dark contemporary fantasy featuring witchcraft, tarot, death, and a bit of romance that’s perfect for fans of Immortal Dark and Cinderella Is Dead.
On an ordinary Monday morning, eighteen-year-old Mikaela Broussard receives the shock of her life. During a customer’s tarot reading at her family’s occult shop, she turns over the Death card and envisions the beautiful stranger stabbing her in the heart.
In order to determine why the girl, Joelle, wants to kill her, she’ll have to keep her close. But the more time Mikaela spends with her soon-to-be murderer, the more irresistible she finds her.
As if imminent death isn’t worrisome enough, witches are turning up with their magic stolen. And it’s clear some very dark magic is at work. Mikaela, as the next Witch Queen of her coven, is tasked with figuring out who’s behind the horrific acts—a mystery that will put her and her power to the test.
Death Card is a dark, pacy, and romantic fantasy about one witch’s journey to find the strength to fight for herself, her future, and her beloved community.
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Jenna G Judith (00:00)
Hey everyone, welcome to Margs and Manuscripts. This week's episode is featuring Jasmine Smith. Her debut novel, Death Card, is coming out this week, and we could not be more excited.
Death Card, it's a YA novel with witchy vibes and some tarot and magic and all these other things that just make it absolutely fabulous. mainly because we definitely slid into her DMs. So you know us, we follow everyone. and when we spot a good book and Cait gets her like magic woo-woo vibes about a book, goodness knows we're getting you on the pod.
So, thanks so much for joining us this week for Jasmine Smith's debut novel and her very first podcast episode ever. we're so happy we could do this with her. So, thanks everyone and we'll see you next week.
Cait (00:45)
I don't read a ton of YA, but when I do, I'm always like pleasantly surprised. And then I'm like, I should read more YA.
Jenna G Judith (00:51)
Like I I think it's just it's twofold. One it feels far more appropriate to have the female main character be eighteen years old versus having like an adult book and have the female main character be eighteen years old. Like there's something there's something to it of I would like a female main character an adult
like fantasy magic land be more than the ripe age of twenty one, please.
Cait (01:27)
It's so true.
Jenna G Judith (01:30)
Like give her some years and some experience.
Cait (01:33)
Man, I love a YA novel that has some adult themes, and they're not even outwardly adult. It's like it doesn't feel preachy. It doesn't feel it's like literally
Jenna G Judith (01:46)
No
Cait (01:47)
just like a story that has a stance on things that has something to say, it's so seamlessly woven into the plot and this world that the character lives in, and like
Ugh, it's so so easy to read. Like it's just I feel safe with her. I feel as like not like a fantasy or like not like I don't usually read this genre. Like
Jenna G Judith (02:12)
It tech yeah.
Cait (02:14)
and yeah, she makes you feel so safe. Like she's got you, and it's gonna get a little scary, but it's gonna be okay. Like, I just I don't know. I felt I felt incredibly safe reading her her work.
And the way that she writes and stuff.
Jenna G Judith (02:30)
Like but everything is beautiful and so beautiful. Like I wanna go to New Orleans. I wanna go to New Orleans!
Cait (02:33)
it's so beautiful. Cool and spooky. So bad. I know.
So bad. And and like she does such a great job hitting everything without making it feel like a travel book. I don't know. Like she just like it's obvious like that the
the culture and like
Jenna G Judith (02:51)
Yes!
Cait (02:52)
the landmarks and stuff are are pointed out, but they're not like, and then we went to here and then we went to here. It was just like part of the character's life in this like really easy
Jenna G Judith (03:02)
Yes
Cait (03:03)
way.
Jenna G Judith (03:04)
I think it was also like wonderful because she disarmed that right away. Like within the first couple
Cait (03:09)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna G Judith (03:10)
chapters of I see tourists, they stick out like a sore thumb, I am not tourist
Cait (03:17)
Yeah, I'm
Jenna G Judith (03:18)
like how many books has she written before this? Because this feels like book ten, not book one.
Cait (03:25)
Yeah. I so
Jenna G Judith (03:27)
Beautiful.
Cait (03:28)
that like I saw this come up on Instagram and obviously we we follow all book people. I see so many books every day on Instagram, like so many book covers and whatever. And the second I saw this come up, I just got that like little feeling in my stomach that I was like
Jenna G Judith (03:45)
You have a wonderful
intuition too, because A, you're friends with me. but B, yes, like there's you you have it. Like if you were like a talent scout or an agent, you ten out of ten, hit it out of the park.
Cait (04:00)
No, but
I I get that. and I feel like maybe that's what it feels like when you fall in love with a book. I was like, I have a tingly feeling in my belly. And I can't describe this feeling, but I need that book and I need to talk to that author. Like it was like a I am I will find a way to talk to this person and read this book because I'm so excited about it. And
Well, like I just this was like a cold DM. I just DM'd her and I was like, please come on my podcast and let me read your book and talk about it 'cause this is like it's so beautiful. Have you seen the cover? And then she did such a good job on her Instagram at like getting people excited about it. It sounds incredible and it's exactly what it sounds like on she does a great job.
Jenna G Judith (04:45)
It's like a master class.
Cait (04:47)
Yeah, like she's doing all the right things. I just feel like everything we're told to do, like she's killing it at and I was I was just dying to talk to her, so I I'm so excited for this right now.
Jenna G Judith (04:58)
I want me some spooky vibes, man. I need more spooky vibes.
Cait (05:02)
We're here for the spooky yeah.
Jenna G Judith (05:04)
I wore my spooky vibe shirt because more hat because of it. This was on purpose.
Cait (05:08)
It's true. And you know what? The spooky
season books are coming out now.
Jenna G Judith (05:12)
Mm-hmm. And I'm obsessed.
Cait (05:14)
So we have enough time to read them all before before the end of spooky season.
Jenna G Judith (05:21)
Is it bad that even like in winter No, this isn't bad. This is just me. in winter, I'm not like a huge Christmas book person. I don't I don't like it. I like just to read spooky vibes
Cait (05:36)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (05:37)
all throughout winter and then I will come back to summary reads, but not until like maybe May. Earliest.
I don't like this.
this time of summer because a my garden has had it and it's just like this is too hot and there's not enough
Cait (05:59)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (06:00)
nitrogen or whatever the f it is in the ground because there's not enough rain during this season. Well that was a tangent that you probably didn't need to know. but
Cait (06:13)
We were here for it.
Jenna G Judith (06:17)
but you know
You plant this is the one part. This is the one part that I like. Is that when my zinnias come up that th that I planted as seeds in May
Cait (06:28)
Are
zinnias a real flower or is that a nickname you gave them?
Jenna G Judith (06:32)
No, that's a real flower.
Cait (06:33)
Okay, 'cause it sounds like some it sounds like it sounds like like they're called like plazinias.
Jenna G Judith (06:43)
I always forget that you have an absolute lack of a gre like it is not even like not even on your radar.
Cait (06:51)
They're actually called, but you were like, but you called them Xinia. Like that is your name for them. Okay.
Jenna G Judith (06:55)
No. No, they're called zinnias. but when the zinnias
come up, that tells me that it's almost fall. Because it takes them all summer to grow and then they just like they just started blooming this week. Which means PSLs come out soon, which means there will be pumpkin flavored everything, and I will be so happy. Okay, I'm done.
Cait (07:17)
It's coming. And this this got me in definitely in the vibes. I understand now. I understand the meeting for vibes. Like I I'm not against it. I'm just wondering
Jenna G Judith (07:23)
Okay.
Cait (07:25)
if people were doing this all along and I was just really behind.
Jenna G Judith (07:30)
That's my goals. She's here.
Cait (07:31)
Yeah, yeah.
Ha
Jenna G Judith (07:35)
Hi Yeah.
Cait (07:38)
Yes.
Jasmine Smith (07:38)
Yeah. Great.
Cait (07:38)
You're amazing. we were just talking about reading for vibes and if that's a new idea made by Instagram or if people were doing that forever.
Jenna G Judith (07:40)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (07:48)
I feel like people have been doing that forever.
Jenna G Judith (07:50)
See it it just
Yeah. But like spooky season now? Yes.
Jasmine Smith (07:56)
It's a big thing, especially like the summer ween.
Jenna G Judith (07:58)
Yes, like I I have all I have all the knickknacks and
Cait (07:59)
That's what we were talking about. Look at the knickknocks. Look at this problem she has.
Jenna G Judith (08:04)
the hat and my birthday's also on Halloween, so I'm like very invested in the fall season. Yeah.
Cait (08:09)
Chees. Yes. Okay.
Jasmine Smith (08:10)
As you should be.
Jenna G Judith (08:12)
I could never live anywhere without like true autumn. I would rather perish than do that.
Jasmine Smith (08:19)
See,
I'm I'm in North Carolina so it's still really hot on Halloween and I hate it.
Jenna G Judith (08:25)
No, we like you No, no, you're like in like almost in your winter
Cait (08:26)
That's h yeah, I don't know if I could do that.
Jenna G Judith (08:31)
coat when you go trick or treating.
Cait (08:33)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (08:34)
Like has snowed.
Jasmine Smith (08:34)
Yeah, I have no
I have not experienced that since I was a child. I feel like Halloween just get hotter and hotter every year.
Cait (08:42)
I mean, yeah, that's probably true. up here
I couldn't do a hot Halloween I've never even thought of that. That'd be crazy. That would
Jenna G Judith (08:47)
No.
Cait (08:48)
be that would be so weird.
Jenna G Judith (08:49)
sorry. Anyways, tangent. Yes it was.
Cait (08:50)
But this book was my pick, even though Jenna's
a spooky girl.
I saw your cover pop up on Instagram and
And all of your content is so good about talking about the and I like I just got those like funny feelings in my belly of like I'm so excited to read this book and
I have to talk to this girl. I never cold DM people. I like o just cold DM'd you.
Jasmine Smith (09:15)
really? I thought that was like a normal thing that happened.
Cait (09:18)
my god, I will go through publicists and like I will do the it the right way, but I was like, I need to talk to her now. so and we swe
Jasmine Smith (09:26)
That's wonderful, yeah. I'm honored actually.
Cait (09:30)
my gosh, no, we're honored. This is so exciting. And congrats. How's the what does this week look like for you? Like
Jasmine Smith (09:38)
my god, I'm just in shock that we're only five days away. Like completely in shock. I actually just got an email from my publicist today about my schedule for Tuesday. I'm going bookstore hopping and I'm gonna be going
Jenna G Judith (09:52)
Hmm.
Jasmine Smith (09:53)
to different Barnes and Noble stores and also an indie bookstore in Raleigh and I'm gonna be signing copies. So I'm super excited.
Cait (10:00)
I'm like thinking in my contacts in in North Carolina thinking who can get us a signed copy.
Jenna G Judith (10:02)
Yeah. I'm like, my gosh, I'm dying.
Cait (10:07)
That's so exciting because I feel like I was looking at your Instagram and it would there was posts that are like, my book comes out in seven months and Trad Publishing is so long that it's crazy
Jasmine Smith (10:14)
Yep.
Cait (10:17)
that it's here for you.
Jasmine Smith (10:19)
Yeah, I mean it's been three years for me since we sold the book. So it has been a long time coming. It was actually supposed to release initially in 2025 and then it got pushed back a year. So this has been a really long time for me.
Jenna G Judith (10:34)
and you were probably a completely different person when you wrote
Jasmine Smith (10:38)
yeah, like I
honestly I look back and I'm like, who was that girl who wrote this book?
Jenna G Judith (10:44)
did you have to like do a reread?
Jasmine Smith (10:47)
I I have not reread it since I did copy edits. I'm waiting until the audio book comes out so I can like listen to it along with everybody else.
Jenna G Judith (10:58)
Ooh, that's a good hot tip.
Cait (10:59)
That's so exciting.
I didn't even think about the audiobook yet. I just was so excited to read the actual book. Now I'm like, I have to hear it.
Jasmine Smith (11:07)
I actually got like auditions from all the different like narrator options and I chose Andia Winslow. I just thought that her voice just perfectly fit the book and I'm so excited to hear like the full like book read.
Jenna G Judith (11:22)
So, okay, we're just I'm just gonna call it like it is. so your book does not read like a debut by any means. It r
Cait (11:33)
No, I'm like, what
Jasmine Smith (11:34)
Really?
Cait (11:34)
are you doing
next if this one was so long ago? Like it's so crazy.
Jenna G Judith (11:37)
Yeah, I'm like, did you have like a back catalogue of like
Cait (11:42)
What other things have you written? Yeah, this can't be like your like experimental I'm trying writing for fun first book.
Jasmine Smith (11:49)
No, yeah. I actually I wrote my first book in high school. It was terrible. It'll never see the light of day. But it was like, about these teenagers who are experimented on in a lab a secret laboratory and they develop secret powers. Like no one's ever gonna read that. I
Jenna G Judith (12:09)
I dunno, could be an audience.
Jasmine Smith (12:13)
But yeah, that was my first book and then I wrote another one
when I was in college. Actually I wrote two when I was in college. And one of those was the book that I got my former agent with. I signed with her with and that was a young adult contemporary novel. and that was like I call that one the book of my heart. Like that was the book before Death Card. and I I still like the fact that it hasn't found a publishing home still like breaks my heart.
Cait (12:43)
What's the story with that? Like what's your publishing journey? So you had another book and then different age it die did it just like die on sub? 'Cause that's so many listeners that we have are like out on sub or they're querying or they're like kind of in those phases of their publishing journey.
Jenna G Judith (12:48)
I'm a different agent.
Jasmine Smith (13:01)
Yeah, so that one that's the one that I signed with my former agent with and we took that one on submission after Death Card sold. I'll have to get into like Death Card and how that came to be. But
Cait (13:14)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (13:14)
Yes.
Jasmine Smith (13:15)
Basically with the YA Contemporary novel, we took it out to editors and we got a lot of positive feedback on it. But Young Adult Contemporary is in this weird space right now where it's really hard to sell and publishers don't really know what they're doing with it because romanticity is so big right now. and so like we were getting feedback from editors and they were saying, it reminds us of John Green, it reminds us of Nicola Yoon.
But we just don't really know what to do with this right now. So it was more so like the market wasn't ready for it.
Jenna G Judith (13:52)
Mm-hmm. So you sold Death Card before that though?
Jasmine Smith (13:59)
though. Yes, I did. the story with that is that I was actually working on edits for the contemporary novel when my agent asked me if I would be open to working on any IP. and IP is basically anything where someone else like comes up with the idea. It could be like working for Disney or working for Marvel.
Or it could be like working for like a story studio or a book packager where they come up with an our original idea and then they find a writer to actually write the book. And so I told her, I said, yeah, I'm open to that. Like, you know, I just want to write. I, you know,
Cait (14:39)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (14:39)
anything. so she came to me with this idea from a book packager, Inked Entertainment.
and I had to submit a writing sample and they loved my voice and they said, hey, we want you to write this book. So I wrote the first ten chapters and they took that out on submission to editors and it sold based on those ten chapters. And that was Death Card.
Jenna G Judith (15:04)
Whoa.
Jasmine Smith (15:05)
Yeah.
Cait (15:06)
That's so c that's a unique story.
Jasmine Smith (15:08)
It is, yeah. It's very like unheard of for a debut to sell on proposal their first book. But I I just happened to get lucky.
Cait (15:17)
Yeah, it's more than luck.
I yours it's so good. So like I'm not I'm not surprised. Jenna, good.
Jenna G Judith (15:25)
Yeah, so like what was that like then? 'Cause we this is a new journey that I've haven't talked to anyone about. Like what is what do you do then?
Cait (15:35)
Ha ha
Jasmine Smith (15:36)
So basically like I to write the full book I was on deadline for it. My editor gave me notes on those ten chapters and then she said, you know, basically go forth and write the whole book. So I wrote that in three months. and then sent her sent that back to her. And then from there it was just like a normal like publishing schedule. You go through developmental edits and then
After that's done, you do copy edits and then proofreading and then you're done. so I did about three rounds of developmental edits and the book changed a lot throughout that process. there were like storylines that were not present in the first draft that are in the finished book now.
Jenna G Judith (16:22)
So is it I I'm gonna just sound a little talk to me like I'm five, please. when you have something sell on proposal, like when you were doing like the IP stuff
Is it sometimes of like you don't get to keep it? Like if you sell something like on IP, or is it you do but you just it's just a different route of doing things?
Jasmine Smith (16:50)
It really depends on like the company that you're working for or working with. Like they're all like super different. in my case, I got to they pretty much gave me like the free reign to do whatever I wanted with the story.
Cait (17:05)
That's so nice.
Jasmine Smith (17:06)
and, you know, of course, like some people when they do IP, they just get like a flat fee and that's all they'll ever see out of that. But that's not my case. Like, you know, I will see some money later on down the line.
and I have seen some. So it really depends. It's like different for from each company.
Jenna G Judith (17:26)
Okay.
Jasmine Smith (17:27)
if you're like wanting an idea of other books that like started out as IP, like the Vampire Diaries, that series, that was initially with Alloy Entertainment, which was another book packager. They've also done, I think, I think they did the Pretty Little Liar series. So
Cait (17:46)
That it's so fascinating to hear because I've heard
we've heard interviewed other authors where they've said, like they signed a two-book deal in the second book. They didn't have the idea for yet, but the editor from the publishing company were giv they were like, Hey, we want like an angsty main character, and they were like, That's not really what I write, and I don't want to write that. You know, so this sounds like a success story with somebody saying like give give like
Coming up with the beginning phases of what became your your this
amazing book. that's so I d I I think that's really cool. Like it seems like a support like you're supported by all these different people during the writing process.
Jasmine Smith (18:32)
yeah, it was really nice to have my editor like working with me from s like so early on in the process and to be able to get that feedback. Like not everybody gets that professional feedback like right after your first draft.
Jenna G Judith (18:47)
And I think that's what feels so good about it. And why it reads so well. Like, y it doesn't read as YA. It doesn't read as like something I wouldn't be interested in. I feel like the only thing that makes it YA is like maybe the arc of the character, but also just
Jasmine Smith (19:10)
That's so
interesting to me because I have read some reviews where people are like, this is too YA. I don't like this 'cause
Jenna G Judith (19:17)
What?
Jasmine Smith (19:18)
they it's too young.
Jenna G Judith (19:20)
Did you read it?
Cait (19:22)
No,
dude, I think I when before you came on, I was talking about how I love that you seamlessly weave adult ideas and thoughts and not even adult, that's like the wrong word, but like strong opinions and things to say into the
and it feels like it has something to say
in the best way and I think it'll resonate with young readers and and adult readers too.
Jasmine Smith (19:51)
You know, I didn't want to talk down to young people. Like, you know, the book is very current and especially its politics. And I just felt like if I was feeling these things, teenagers are pr like also seeing what's going on and they're feeling these things as well. And you know, I just want it to have like an outlet for them and also like a beacon of hope for
for them like you know things do get better.
Jenna G Judith (20:19)
And you literally like came right out of the gate with it. You're like you didn't even try to hide it. It was like this is our political
Cait (20:24)
No.
Jenna G Judith (20:26)
stance. Ready, set, go. And But you also, like you said, you didn't have to sugar you didn't have to sugarcoat stuff. You didn't have to like cloak it. Like it just it felt very honest and I am not one to like reach out for like a YA book. That like I'm
I'm into like the dark and twisty. so when we got to read it, I'm like, Cait this is not YA. What are you talking about? And she was like, This is YA. So
Cait (20:54)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (20:56)
But also, Cait you said like we were chatting before this, you said you like
You're not into the magic, realism, fantasy realm of anything.
Cait (21:05)
It's just not, yeah, it's not like what I would normally
pick up, but I feel like it resonates with non-fantasy or magic or realism like readers too, because your writing feels so familiar and and I felt safe and comfortable. Like you're gonna be okay. You're gonna understand this and like you're gonna we're gonna work through this together. And I'm gonna take you on a journey and everything will be fine. so
if you're out there listening and you normally wouldn't reach for
For this genre. Like it was such a nice maybe even introduction to it, but it feels so good to read. and that's such a credit to you. And I th and I feel like we talk about YA a little bit. We we specifically wanted to have a YA author on to talk about where the genre is now and like where you think it's headed. Are you working on
more YA? Are you gonna
gonna dive in anywhere else or do you like really like this
Jasmine Smith (22:04)
I I would like to carve out a home in YA. You know, it's such an important genre for me. I have very fond memories of reading like so many different of you know popular YA books, The Fault in Our Stars, Divergent Hunger Games, like all of the greats. and I really want to be able to like make my mark in that space.
But saying that, I eventually want to write for all ages. that's the goal. I I don't want to be tied down to a specific age qu category or genre. but I do want to make a home in YA. I think in the last few years
YA has been struggling a little bit because it is kind of marketing to adults that read YA. And I always want teens to be first and foremost like my first readers when I'm writing.
Cait (23:01)
That's such a good point. Jenna, I'm sure you had a child walk in, but I understand. But we often talk about that, like where the genre is it getting too too mature because it's get gear getting geared towards
adults more because adults obviously enjoy reading it. Honestly, you know what I was thinking too as I was reading it? That I think if I was reading it as a teen, you would be like identifying with the teen characters in it. But reading it as a mom and as an adult was
such a different experience. And I think that like without having too much of adult themes that like adults will
find themselves really emotionally involved in this story because of the generational story that you tell. Like the the female generational relationships are so special and they are especially prevalent in like New Orleans,
like like Southern literature, I find a lot. And it that those are always really special to read, but especially as a mom, very emotional. Like when she sees her mom and it like, no spoilers, but
Jasmine Smith (24:13)
that was one of my that
Cait (24:14)
Forget it.
Jasmine Smith (24:15)
was one of my favorite scenes to write, along with the one where she gets to see another, you know, female character in her life. I'm not gonna spoil it. But, you know, I really I feel like a lot of us wish that we could see our lost loved ones, you know, one more time again. And so getting to give Michaela that experience was like really special and is definitely one of my favorite scenes.
Cait (24:41)
Yeah, it was so it was really special.
Jenna G Judith (24:41)
Because w was
it was your dedication to your grandma or your grandpa? Your grandmother, okay, 'cause
Jasmine Smith (24:47)
My grandmother. Your grandmother, okay. Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (24:51)
I really paid attention to that and then it was a beautiful little jump. Like from even just starting with the dedication, actually reading it, and then the whole entire story was totally painted differently. It would like chills. Like
That's what a dedication is for.
Cait (25:12)
Yes.
Jasmine Smith (25:12)
You know,
I f I felt like because, you know, Michaela's relationship with her grandmother was so special, it was only right to dedicate it to my grandmother who was so special in my life and who had such an impact. And there was no one else that I could dedicate this book to.
Cait (25:30)
I wanna get into the tea.
Are you into magical stuff and do you do you do the tarot cards? Do you do the medium readings? Are you are you into it?
Jasmine Smith (25:42)
That
was I did not know anything about tarot before I started writing the book.
I actually had to do research and my best friend actually bought me my first tarot deck. But like since writing the book, like I do give myself readings sometimes when I just like feel
Cait (25:59)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (26:00)
stuck or if I just like need some guidance. So I, you know, definitely am into it now.
Jenna G Judith (26:08)
That's so funny because when so Cait lives in Boston, I live in Wisconsin. So when I went and visited her, we went to Salem. And I'd never done like those places like don't really exist. Like the witchy shops don't really exist in Green Bay. anyways, so we went to like a tarot card reader and I like we did I did it for the very first time. I'm like this is weird.
But like good weird. And so So now like reading your book and
Cait (26:41)
It's so fun.
Jenna G Judith (26:42)
I'm like, I wanna do it again.
Jasmine Smith (26:45)
It's so creepy
Cait (26:45)
Yes.
Jasmine Smith (26:46)
sometimes how the cards can just like they really speak to like particular moments in your life and I'm like, my god, like I just had a breakthrough
Cait (26:56)
It's literally so true, but I loved her take on it where she is this like actual practicing witch
where she has the powers and she's watching everybody else like try to do what she does and they cannot, because that's literally what I grew up.
I grew up very close to Salem. like one of your characters. But
And that's like what our my whole life is, like and going into these touristy areas and seeing like all these like magic shops and tarot card shops. And the only thing about that is that you get so jaded by it when you live there. And honestly, like you captured
that perfectly and how she deals with gentrification and the city changing and you know, losing perspective of like where she grew up because of tourism
and people taking over. You know, it's it's
It's very relatable to a lot of places, I think in the US people can definitely relate to that theme.
Jasmine Smith (27:54)
yeah, yeah. And I've you know, one of my blurbs actually from Jessica Lewis like mentioned the gentrification and how well it was done. And I actually I was like surprised by that. I didn't think that would resonate with like
A whole lot of people.
it is like something that has come up throughout like some of my studies in college. Like I did a lot of like women's and gender studies and like racial and ethnic relations and those, you know, mentioned gentrification and how, you know, dangerous that can be to a neighborhood, to a community. so I think that's probably where that came into play.
Jenna G Judith (28:34)
I assume that was a liberal arts degree.
Cait (28:38)
Yes.
Jenna G Judith (28:40)
Because I'm like, Yeah, liberal hearts
Jasmine Smith (28:45)
I actually got an English major, but I was like two classes away from getting a women's and gender studies minor. Like if I had taken
Jenna G Judith (28:53)
Damn!
Jasmine Smith (28:54)
two more classes I could have gotten that minor.
Jenna G Judith (28:57)
It would have taken an entire extra semester though, I'm sure.
Cait (28:57)
Damn it. I know. Yes, for
Jasmine Smith (29:01)
yeah.
Cait (29:03)
the liberal arts and English degrees. We're very familiar here.
Jenna G Judith (29:06)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (29:07)
Yeah.
Cait (29:08)
I feel like there are so many themes that are e like I said that are just like so easily tied into this plot that I'm I'm curious, like that you even you you just have the feelings and you wrote them and without much
agenda, like I don't know, like without being like, I really
Jenna G Judith (29:23)
yes.
Cait (29:24)
want to talk about this. And I it just comes out naturally because you've so much to say and it's just so it's said so beautifully. So yeah, it's it's awesome.
Jasmine Smith (29:33)
you. Y'all are y'all are really
Jenna G Judith (29:32)
Mm.
Jasmine Smith (29:35)
like doing great things for my ego.
Jenna G Judith (29:37)
I'm like I'm
Cait (29:37)
It's your release week,
man. We're here to pump you up. Yes.
Jenna G Judith (29:39)
Yeah, you need it. I will butter you up all day long because that
you did the very hard things for a very long time. So you need to be applauded.
Cait (29:49)
You d yeah, this is you need
to celebrate for sure this week. do you have any like big parties or any like did you is there a launch party? Is there like something that you're like particularly looking forward to?
Jenna G Judith (29:59)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (30:02)
I am not having a launch event on the day of, but next weekend I'm actually doing a book signing in Charlotte, North Carolina at Trope Bookshop. So that's gonna be a fun way to celebrate and meet some readers. and then I'm doing an event with Noelle Monet later in the month. and her book, Bound by Fury, is coming out a week after mine, and it is crazy how similar it is to Death Card in theme.
Like she's got,
Jenna G Judith (30:33)
Really?
Jasmine Smith (30:34)
yes, it's got black witches in it as well. It's also got a very influential grandmother figure. it's set in the south. So we were like, my god, we've got to have an event together because that's crazy that our books are coming out so close together.
Cait (30:50)
gonna be so fun. I was just there for the first time like last weekend and it was like such a cute little and the the the bar next door it was adorable. I loved it.
Jasmine Smith (30:59)
I'm
I'm very excited. It's actually gonna be for bookstore romance day. So they're gonna have like some
Jenna G Judith (31:04)
Yes.
Jasmine Smith (31:06)
other authors there doing signings. They're gonna have a cinnamon roll, like food truck. It's gonna be so fun.
Jenna G Judith (31:13)
Excuse me?
Cait (31:14)
Yeah, it's a cute little Jenna, it's like a little courtyard
and like it has like a bar on one side and then the bookstore is like on the other s it's cool. It's it's really cute.
Jenna G Judith (31:24)
I heard cinnamon
roll food truck.
Jasmine Smith (31:28)
I'm excited for that.
Cait (31:29)
Yeah.
How did you feel when you saw that cover?
Jasmine Smith (31:33)
my god,
Jenna G Judith (31:33)
my god.
Jasmine Smith (31:34)
I it was everything that I dreamed of, honestly.
Cait (31:37)
Like
Jasmine Smith (31:39)
because I'm a
Jenna G Judith (31:39)
I'm a judgy person. I'm a judgy person when it comes to
Cait (31:40)
She's
Jenna G Judith (31:41)
covers. Like, I have an art degree. I was a designer. I will never
Cait (31:45)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (31:46)
design my own book cover. Hell no. But I saw that one and I'm like, sold. Buying. Pre-ordered. Check. Done. Like, so good.
Jasmine Smith (31:56)
it was amazing. I mean the artist Helena Elias, she just killed it. She absolutely captured like everything so perfectly and I had given the publisher like this slide deck of like covers that I w that I liked and I wanted them to take inspiration from, color palettes, I gave them like pictures of what the characters look like and Helena just took
took all of that and did such a good job. And also Caitlin Yang, the designer, like they just killed
Jenna G Judith (32:34)
dream team.
Cait (32:34)
Yeah, it's so beautiful. And in
the sprayed edges too, like I with the my god, it was so it was amazing. I and I'm not like I I don't need every special edition or anything, but I was like that book's gonna look really nice. Yeah, you yours is yours is gonna you need the collection, but that's gonna look so pretty on some bookshelves for sure.
Jenna G Judith (32:49)
Yeah. Yeah. I kn well
Jasmine Smith (32:53)
sure. It definitely is. I just can't wait to actually walk into a bookstore for the first time and see it in all its glory. That's gonna be amazing.
Jenna G Judith (33:02)
So okay, so did you do you
have like a box of books that you've been like longingly staring at this entire time? Because okay.
Jasmine Smith (33:07)
staring at this entire time. yeah, I well they're
they're not in a box anymore. I put them on my bookshelf. But yes,
Cait (33:14)
There we go.
Jenna G Judith (33:14)
Okay, good.
Jasmine Smith (33:15)
I have been staring at them. I've been taking pictures with them, holding them up in the light because there's gold foil on the cover that just like shimmers in the light. God, it's perfect.
Jenna G Judith (33:26)
Stop it. pull the damn.
Cait (33:27)
You can't see that online. I feel
like I haven't So you it's like even more beautiful in person? Is that what you're saying?
Jasmine Smith (33:33)
person? Yes, exactly. Yes.
Jenna G Judith (33:34)
Mm.
Jasmine Smith (33:37)
And I didn't know there was gonna be gold foil until I actually got the box in the mail and opened it up and I was like, my god, this is somehow even better than the graphics online.
Jenna G Judith (33:49)
Like if you if you know anything about printing, you know. Sprayed edges, expensive. Gold foil, which generally means embossing or debossing, depending on whatever, very expensive. You put those two together and you have like a powerhouse that can just take it to the stratosphere. And I'm gonna go order pe clearly Penguin was very excited.
Cait (34:12)
Yeah. I mean Penguin was excited about this one, for sure.
Jasmine Smith (34:15)
yeah.
Yeah. And I was I was shocked. I didn't know it was gonna get sprayed edges until I just got a random email one day with a mock up and they were like, Yeah, we're gonna give you stenciled edges. There's a lot of excitement in house and I was like, my god, this is a dream come true. You
Jenna G Judith (34:34)
You you
Cait (34:34)
That's
so exciting.
Jenna G Judith (34:35)
are
th this is like hashtag goals of everything you would ever want just handed.
Jasmine Smith (34:43)
Yes, and
I I love that it is a paperback release because it's more affordable for a lot of people, especially teenagers. and, you know, people
Jenna G Judith (34:53)
True.
Jasmine Smith (34:54)
people love a floppy paperback. So W like you
Jenna G Judith (34:57)
What like when you mark it up and you like
highlight things?
Cait (35:01)
Wait,
I never I haven't even thought about that aspect. So there are like differences between really this is I'm very naive too. Jenna's liked the design, so she pays attention to stuff. But like some books only have paperback releases because I that to me wasn't weird. Like I feel like I just bought a ton of paperbacks. Is that more common now?
Jenna G Judith (35:11)
Ha ha ha.
Jasmine Smith (35:23)
Well, it's becoming a lot more common, especially in YA, because they know that the pr the high price point of hardcovers can kinda price out some people. So they're starting to do paperback first releases or paperback
Jenna G Judith (35:36)
Mm.
Jasmine Smith (35:36)
only releases. And my Death Card did sell as a paperback release. So I knew like the whole time that it would be just a paperback, no hard no hardcover.
Cait (35:48)
That literally makes so much sense. I never even thought of that. That's w for YA that makes sense.
Jenna G Judith (35:52)
And it
and it also it goes into like the length of it 'cause
sometimes like the binding just makes more sense like on a per page depending on like the weight I wow, I'm a nerd. the weight of the paper. if it's too heavy of a weighted paper, paperback doesn't
Cait (36:03)
Yes.
Jenna G Judith (36:10)
like go well with it. So it's like that happy medium of cost of cost of paper, cost of printing, cost of binding and
Cait (36:18)
There you go. The more you know, Jenna
This for all the indie authors listening, now we know.
Jasmine Smith (36:25)
know.
Jenna G Judith (36:26)
Yep.
Sorry guys.
Cait (36:28)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (36:30)
I actually love that. I did not know anything about that, so that was educational.
Jenna G Judith (36:33)
Okay.
Cait (36:36)
It's it's like that's why she's like the best partner for this stuff, because this is where she fills in the things I could never know.
Jenna G Judith (36:44)
This is true.
Cait (36:45)
Jenna has this great question that she asks
all of our guests and you haven't asked it yet, but Jen, I'm sure it's coming, but I I'm very curious to know. It's your debut, so there's not
like published works out there, but you've written so many things and you've experimented with your writing.
And you've been doing it for a long time, but where does this book for you fall on like a superlative list? but like where does it fall for you on the writing aspect compared to your other work?
Jenna G Judith (37:18)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (37:19)
I feel like this one and this is gonna sound like ridiculous. I don't even know if this is a good answer, but it is this one is probably most likely to end up on a banned books list.
Jenna G Judith (37:31)
H
Cait (37:33)
Do tell me more I mean I read it, but like tell the readers more
Jenna G Judith (37:36)
my god, ha has Yes,
has someone banned it? Can we God damn it
Jasmine Smith (37:42)
Not yet, not yet. But
Cait (37:42)
Is it gonna be banned?
Jasmine Smith (37:46)
I think just because, you know, it's got a queer relationship, it's got discussions of politics, it's got some swearing in it. I'm like, this is a Republican mom's dream band book.
Jenna G Judith (38:03)
Ooh this is a a Karen would love to ban this one.
Cait (38:08)
Giro would totally now
Jasmine Smith (38:08)
yeah.
Cait (38:09)
yeah. The thought did not not cross my mind when reading it. I was like, this is
Jasmine Smith (38:16)
Yeah, I'm I'm
expecting it. It's it's sad. Like I do not support banning books. but I'm kind of expecting it to end up on at least one one school systems list.
Cait (38:28)
Is that your thought
too, like as the writer, are people preparing you for that in other ways too? Does does that conversation come up at all in publishing?
Jenna G Judith (38:34)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (38:36)
no, that conversation has not come up at all. That's just like me like knowing the state of the country right now, and just anticipating that.
Jenna G Judith (38:47)
And isn't it kind
I'm g I'm well I will not bore you with my dissertations on this, but it is almost as if writing banned books is the goal with or like pushing the themes farther and farther because we gotta have at some point have people wake up and be like, knock it off, quit banning books. They're not telling you, it's not like a
like a how to manual guide, folks. Like this is simply challenging you. And if it challenges you a little too hard, does that mean it's not right for everyone? So
Cait (39:27)
Now I'm
thinking of the themes that are gonna like get it I wonder if even just the magical part of it would get it banned.
Jasmine Smith (39:34)
yeah. I didn't even think about that, but yes, absolutely.
Jenna G Judith (39:34)
Yup duh Duh.
Cait (39:40)
No, I mean I feel like anything goes, right? I'm just saying like even just like the baseline, like New Orleans, witches, witches, yes, it's the witches, it's the witches. Yeah. Demons and witches.
Jasmine Smith (39:44)
it's got witches and demons,
Cait (39:52)
Yeah, that that might
Jenna G Judith (39:52)
Karen's gonna hate it.
Cait (39:54)
I don't know. I don't like you never know.
Jenna G Judith (39:56)
I may just push it over the edge, man.
Cait (39:59)
How do you I know I'm jumping around like com because I feel like I have
Jenna G Judith (40:01)
I don't care.
Cait (40:02)
so many that but how many how do you those there there are so many plot lines in this that
Jenna G Judith (40:09)
Ple yeah, please tell me there are post its involved.
Cait (40:12)
How do you plot this out? Do you I know that there was like initial idea, but like how do you keep track of all
the there's so many things happening and so many families and so many what's your system?
Jasmine Smith (40:22)
I had a for each revision I had a spreadsheet where I would actually like list out exactly what happens in each chapter and then I would go through and say exactly what needs to change both like overall but also on like a chapter by chapter basis. I also had a whiteboard calendar where I would like mark what is happening
happening each day so I would keep track of like the timeline. But apparently I was
Jenna G Judith (40:50)
Yes.
Jasmine Smith (40:51)
really bad at that because the proofreaders and copy editors had to like fix a lot of the timeline issues.
Jenna G Judith (41:00)
Like I legit have like a pile of note cards over there for my book. For it's like timeline. Event day zero. Event plus twenty days.
Jasmine Smith (41:10)
Yeah, I
thought I was doing such a good job and then they were like, actually no, this is happening on Thursday. This needs to change And I was like, I I thought I had it happening on Thursday, but apparently I had it happening on Tuesday. It was all messed up.
Cait (41:25)
You know what, you can't
be responsible for that. That's their job to figure out.
Jenna G Judith (41:31)
It's true.
Jasmine Smith (41:31)
And they did an excellent job. Like I had to
Cait (41:33)
I'm giving
Jasmine Smith (41:34)
mention them in the acknowledgments because they did fantastic. The book would not be what it was without the copy editors and proofreaders.
Cait (41:43)
Yeah, that's a crazy job though. Like I feel like I could not keep track of all those things. It like what they do is insane, like just w reading something and paying attention to those details and stuff. Whereas, you know, we have the whiteboard, Arjuna has the note cards, you have the note card, like it takes us so much more work to figure that out and they just like read it and they're like point out all those things. It's like nuts.
Jasmine Smith (42:08)
Well, I'm pretty sure they have like a style sheet that they're working off of. And I know that mine had like actually had their own sort of calendar that they were working off of to figure out what day the events were happening.
Cait (42:21)
Yeah, 'cause you have a very set timeline.
Jasmine Smith (42:24)
yeah. It takes place in like a month. From start to finish, yeah. The book.
Cait (42:31)
Yeah, 'cause of the moons. You just know what the moon's gonna be and mesh with it is crazy how
Jenna G Judith (42:31)
Yeah.
Cait (42:38)
I I love that I feel like in some books that I read, all those things that you need in literature in a good book, the the boxes you check, like,
okay, timeline, stakes. There's a time there's a time limit. Okay, there's like
I l life or death situation, the stakes are high. The all the boxes were checked.
But they were done they were tied in so well. I don't know, like it might say the three way, you know what I mean? It wasn't distracting
Jenna G Judith (43:02)
It it wasn't distracting.
Cait (43:05)
where I was like,
Jenna G Judith (43:05)
No.
Cait (43:06)
she just had to add this in because she needs an ailing grandmother to really up the emotional you know what I mean? Like they were just all part of the plot in this really easy way and creative way, with the moon, with the card and the visions. What awesome tools to use.
Jenna G Judith (43:08)
Check that box.
That w great storytelling tools for sure.
I want another one in this series.
Jasmine Smith (43:28)
What we need enough reviews
Cait (43:28)
So
Jasmine Smith (43:30)
saying that, so maybe my publisher will buy another one.
Jenna G Judith (43:34)
I will
Cait (43:34)
What's my biggest question
going into this when I'm finished reading?
Jenna G Judith (43:36)
Yes.
Jasmine Smith (43:38)
Yeah, it for now is a standalone, but you know, never say never. Maybe they'll come back and say, Jasmine, we want another one. That's the hope. But for right now it's a standalone.
Jenna G Judith (43:51)
Because you clearly have an idea.
Jasmine Smith (43:53)
Maybe, maybe not.
Jenna G Judith (43:53)
Yes
Cait (43:56)
You left it open I mean it's it didn't like end on a cliffhanger by any means, but like it ended in a way that you could clearly go into the next one.
Jasmine Smith (44:05)
one? I I wanted the ending to, you know, end in a way where you can be satisfied with, you know, that journey has closed. But if I need to reopen it in the future, we still have some more story left to tell.
Jenna G Judith (44:21)
It's like a season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That's all I'm saying.
Cait (44:26)
It literally
Jasmine Smith (44:41)
I hope so. I
Cait (44:26)
is and there's so many relationships that just are starting. So many things that she's taking on that are just starting. Like there's so many ways go with this. I'm just saying, I feel like it's gonna happen. I think that peep readers are gonna want more for sure. That's my biased opinion.
Jasmine Smith (44:42)
hope so.
Jenna G Judith (44:44)
Let's
ask the cards.
Cait (44:46)
Z Yes.
Jasmine Smith (44:47)
Yes.
Cait (44:49)
Absolutely. What is there something that you're working on next that you can talk about? Or do
Jenna G Judith (44:54)
Yeah!
Cait (44:55)
you have something even that you're just doing for fun or?
Jasmine Smith (44:59)
Yeah, I'm not under contract for anything right now, but I've got a couple things that I'm in the middle of working on. one of them is another YA contemporary fantasy. it's almost like a murder mystery type where a teen girl is searching for her sister's murderer. and that's all I'm gonna say about that.
Jenna G Judith (45:25)
Just like
Cait (45:26)
I mean, he's just dropping in.
Jasmine Smith (45:28)
And then I've got an idea that literally just came to me the other night that I'm like, hmm, maybe I I kinda wanna look into this a little bit more and see. But I've I've always got multiple ideas in my head that I just have to like parse through.
Jenna G Judith (45:46)
This has been absolutely fabulous. I'm so happy that this worked out because like we said, our our episodes are very particularly curated. And this was one
Cait (45:58)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (45:59)
And this
Jenna G Judith (45:59)
where I'm like
We have an open slot for her? Are you serious?
Cait (46:04)
Can we talk to her like we were so excited.
Jasmine Smith (46:06)
And I'm so glad that y'all had me on. This is actually like my first ever podcast and I was so nervous for it. But it has been like s yes, it has been so much fun talking to y'all. It's just been so natural. So thank you for having me on.
Jenna G Judith (46:21)
I anytime, anytime. Especially when you get that sequel or if you wanna do like a live like we're gonna do like a card reading like while we're talking about the book some more. Maybe like a spooky Yeah.
Cait (46:31)
Yeah, exactly. You will come up with a better like marketing
episode plan next was just like we just want to talk to her. But I have a feeling you'll be doing a lot more of these, so get used to it.
Jenna G Judith (46:44)
Yeah.
Jasmine Smith (46:45)
Yeah, I this was good practice and it was a great
Jenna G Judith (46:48)
Yes.
Jasmine Smith (46:48)
first podcast appearance. So
Jenna G Judith (46:50)
Yay, that's what we love to hear
Cait (46:51)
I'm so glad.
Jenna G Judith (46:53)
This has been another episode of Margs and Manuscripts. Thanks for listening. Your hosts are Jenna G. Judith, Cait Waynelovich Our writer and public relations manager is Cait Waynelovich. Music by John Waynelovich Editor, Editor Jenna G. Judith. Creative direction, Jenna G. Judith. And our podcast manager, Cait Waynelovich Don't forget to like,
follow, subscribe, all that jazz. Visit our website at margsandmanuscripts.com and don't forget to hit that subscribe button.
