Discovery Writing, Outlining & Trusting Your Characters | Lauren Okie (Copy)
July 21, 2026
Featured Guests:
Grace Reilly
Grace Reilly is the author of the Wicked Play sports romance series, including Wicked Serve and Beyond the Play, and the contemporary romance Yes Chef. Known for hyper-specific, research-driven worlds and grumpy-sunshine chemistry, Grace's books pair meticulous behind-the-scenes detail with big emotional stakes.
What happens when your characters know the story before you do?
This week, we sit down with romance author Lauren Okie to talk about discovery writing, outlining, second drafts, and learning to trust your creative instincts. From writing Tropesick while querying her debut novel to protecting the creative spark in a publishing industry full of distractions, Lauren shares an honest look at the realities of writing books that surprise both the author and the reader.
Lauren Okie didn't set out to write a book about tropes.
She set out to write characters compelling enough to tell her where the story wanted to go.
In this episode, Lauren joins Jenna and Cait to discuss the writing process behind Tropesick, her approach to discovery writing, and why she believes character should always come before plot. The conversation explores outlining versus improvisation, second drafts, deleting scenes you love, and the challenge of protecting creativity in an industry that often prioritizes metrics over art.
For writers, this episode is packed with practical advice on trusting your instincts, identifying what belongs in your story, and finding your way through the messy middle of drafting a novel.
For readers, it's a fascinating behind-the-scenes look at the mind of an author whose stories blend romance, humor, grief, and literary ambition.
In This Episode
Why Grace scrapped 80,000 words of a finished manuscript
Telling her editor she didn't want to publish the book
Kitchen Confidential, The Bear, and researching restaurant culture
The real Treasure Coast restaurant that inspired Fable
Writing Poppy and Jack's dynamic: the artist vs. the marketer
Why "content" and "art" are two different modes for authors
How romance readers use trope labels to set expectations
Balancing multiple projects and subgenres at once
Trusting that a book's reception isn't a verdict on its quality
What it's like to release a book you have zero regrets about
Yes, Chef
Grace Reilly
If you can’t take the heat…get out of the kitchen.
A down on his luck chef and a determined social media maven strike a reluctant deal to bring a beloved restaurant back to life. It could be a recipe for success—or a complete disaster—in this deliciously sweet and spicy new romance from national bestselling author Grace Reilly.
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Jenna (00:00)
Okay, friends, we got a really great episode for you today. You will want this book on your TBR. Grace Reilly is our guest today, and she essentially should be moonlighting as a therapist for authors
Because if you have ever been in the midst of promoting your book or working on your next one or even just pitching your latest idea to your agent, you probably have gone through everything that we talk about today. except Grace
is probably one of the bravest people we've met because she got through 80% of a manuscript and said, I hate this, and said no thank you to it and started writing her next book and made it everything that she ever wanted it to be. And that book is called Yes Chef. it is out today on release day of this episode. go buy it right now. Like, legit, it is gonna be the perfect summer read. If you like the bear, if you like Top Chef, if you like
MasterChef, if you like anything food related. If you like to take pictures of your your food and post it on Instagram when you're out at a restaurant, cool, this book's for you. Or if you just like grumpy sunshine or other fun tropes, feel free to go buy it right now. So we're very excited for Grace to join us on the pod today. And you will not want to miss this one, especially if you need to feel the feels today as an author. Cool. Love you guys.
So did you start with a pitch or did you like kind of stumble upon this story? Like we Cait and I always like to hear like an author's like behind the scenes kind of moment of, yeah, totally pitched this to my agent and they're like, That sounds great. Or was it something you had like sitting in your like drafts for the longest time?
Grace Reilly (01:29)
Mm-hmm.
Ha ha.
I actually wrote after Wicked Serve, The Last Beyond the Playbook came out, I wrote probably like eighty percent of a completely
different contemporary romance that I ended up hating. that's the reason why there wasn't a book last year and why Yes Chef is coming out this summer. It's because I was like just try like it took me in a direction that I didn't necessarily want my career to go in. and I think a lot of it was just feeling like I was trying to f to make it fit for Trad in a way that did not fit for me.
I ended up telling my editor that I just didn't want to publish this book. and we went back to the drawing board. And then, you know, one of the other ideas that I had back when I was pitching was the concept of doing something with a chef. initially the concept was a little different. it was like personal chef, you know, kind of like not restaurant based, but
It was the the kernel of the story that then after I did some more brainstorming, being like, What like what do I actually want to write? You know, like not based on expectation, but like what would I w actually want my next book to be after beyond the play. This is what I settled on. and like I said, you know, it was inspired by the bear and all that good stuff. and it just kind of went on from there. But that's the reason why there's kind of a long timeline between this book and then
you know, my stuff that came out for Beyond the Play. because I I think Wicked Serve was August 2024 and then all of twenty twenty-five passed, and that was when I was having my crisis and then writing Yes, Chef so now we're now we're in twenty twenty six and we have Yes, Chef finally. But it was definitely one of those experiences where Yes Chef was the book that I I'm really happy to have written and I'm very, very pleased with it. But it took writing most of a book that probably
We will never see the light of day. That's completely unrelated first. Yeah.
Jenna (03:34)
my god,
I have not heard that before.
cait (03:35)
I don't feeling for you.
Grace Reilly (03:38)
It happens, I am sure.
yeah. It's very difficult to to tell them that you don't want to publish something that you've been working on because they were, you know, they were hoping that that would be summer twenty twenty five. So it would be you know, it would have come out last summer. but yeah, it sometimes it just doesn't work out.
cait (03:57)
That's incredible. And we've talked a lot on this podcast about every book having its own journey, right? Like sometimes we start out as indie, sometimes we start out as Trad and then we do an indie book that we want to publish or like it's in in that people tend to diversify more than we know it as as readers. so it's fun to hear as authors what those journeys are like for you.
And so like yeah, to hear that you do end up going trad and then writing something is amaz but that's not a ton of time. Like twenty twenty you said twenty twenty four to and now you releasing in twenty twenty six.
Jenna (04:32)
So essentially
you were your own head chef and you said this this dish is not good enough to go through the pass and you chucked it across the room, broke the plate, and front of house was like, What the hell, man?
cait (04:42)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (04:42)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. okay. The book that you wrote Eighty Thousand Words for that we've talked about a lot, like you're just gonna just pretend that that doesn't exist anymore. Yep. yep. Exactly. Yeah.
Jenna (04:53)
Hmm.
cait (05:02)
my god, what a short. I feel like it
all worked out 'cause this is like I said, like everyone's really pumped for this book that we can tell and we have FOMO, we really try to listen and like keep our like make sure that we are like on the bookstagrams and stuff and like yeah, I feel like this one's at the top of everybody's list for the summer and it should be. you guys like it's it's awesome and you are for sure gonna love it. let's talk about the influencing aspect of
Grace Reilly (05:30)
yeah, sure.
cait (05:31)
I loved the dynamics between Poppy and Jack and like he's the artist, she's the marketer, but as authors I feel like we can relate to like wanting to create the art, not wanting to have to market it, but needing to market it
Jenna (05:42)
Both roles.
cait (05:48)
to literally get ourselves out there and and being modern artists or modern authors and like I would love to talk a little bit more of that and your experience in that world as well.
Grace Reilly (05:59)
yeah, it's like I think the bane of everybody's existence, including mine. it's just really hard. It's hard to be present online and also make art at the same time. Frankly, it's really difficult. I've had a lot of trouble balancing promotion for Yes Chef with working on stuff that I have going on behind the scenes.
because there's you know that immediate satisfaction that you get from if you post something and then somebody notices it and it's like, okay, well, I'm I feel like I'm taking control, I'm doing something to let people know about my book. But then, you know, the real work is is sort of on the the side of you're sitting by yourself at your computer and nobody knows what you're doing. and eventually they might know about it. But
you can't get to the point where you'd have to share the fun like snippets and like aesthetics and all that stuff until, you know, you have like the guts of it on the on the page and written down.
So it's very difficult to balance the two. I find them to be like completely different, you know, completely separate sort of enterprises. I'm not very good at focusing on even one thing at a time, much less multiple things. So it it it is a real struggle, and I think it's a struggle for a lot of other authors too. but you know, with Poppy specifically, I think it's really interesting how she she like doesn't take herself seriously in the beginning, because no one else really takes her seriously.
And then Jack also doesn't take her seriously because he's kind of like, this influencing thing is like, I can see why it might be useful, but I'm not really putting that much stock in it. And then by the end, it's like something that he's very much aware of, like her impact in you know, everything that happens with Fable. and
feeling like, you know, she's really, really capable and like has a lot of knowledge to share. you know, I don't want to put down anybody who like does influencing or anything like that. That wasn't what I mean by, like, you know, like it being something where, you know, you're trying to take like the depths of what's on the page and then like make it pretty necessarily. But it's just
Two different modes and I think exploring the difference between those two modes is something that you know did come up in Yes Chef, probably because it also comes up in my author life all the time. Where I'm like, you know, how am I gonna present those books to people? But then at the same time, like, how am I gonna stay quiet long enough to be in my own brain and my own creativity to to you know to get to the point where I can share things with people.
Jenna (08:22)
You just essentially d articulated what's in my head. Every time I post on Instagram.
Grace Reilly (08:26)
Yeah.
cait (08:28)
It's so relatable. Can we just talk about how fable like the fucking best name for a restaurant? Ever.
Grace Reilly (08:29)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Jenna (08:36)
Okay, so if you were to make your own restaurant, would it be that or would you have something else in mind? Yeah.
Grace Reilly (08:43)
Me?
I wouldn't want an es I I wouldn't want a restaurant. I would probably do an ice cream shop, honestly, if I was gonna do anything food related. I'm huge ice cream. Yeah, huge ice cream fan. I think it'd be fun at home up with ice cream flavors. But Fable is actually based on a restaurant that I really like in the area where I live. So
Jenna (08:51)
Solid choice.
cait (08:53)
Mm.
Grace Reilly (09:04)
Diamond Bay is sort of like meant to be a patchwork of a bunch of different towns in the area where I live in Florida and on the Treasure Coast. and then Fable is kind of based on a bunch of different restaurants that are in the area.
One of them in particular, District Table and Bar, is amazing, first of all. If anybody's ever on the treasure coast, they should go. but the thing that I really liked about it is that the menu is always a bit different. they don't keep a set menu, they change it depending upon like the season, what ingredients are available, what you know inspiration the chef is coming up with. And I think that that's really fun and that's what I wanted to go for for Fable. So,
In the future I can imagine that the restaurant menu would change often and that there would always be doing something to like experiment. And I think that that level of like artistic expression doesn't always come up in the food industry. You know, sometimes it's more cut and dry, but it's really fun when it does happen.
And yeah, it was just fun to imagine Fable being similar. Especially if they're eventually gonna get a star, which they do. you know, not in the course of the book, but I think, you know, it's you can tell that it's going in that direction. That's what he wants, what Jack wants.
Jenna (10:12)
I think if I were to be in your shoes, I would be eating there every single day for research. I would chalk it up to maybe some tax some tax exemptions. and I would just become a carb-loading hermit and I wouldn't be mad about it.
Grace Reilly (10:20)
Ha ha
cait (10:20)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (10:25)
Yeah.
cait (10:29)
Yeah. I'd
Grace Reilly (10:29)
Okay.
cait (10:30)
be checking out the chef and seeing if he has an octopus tattoo on his net 'cause I'm into it. I'm into the octopus tattoo. I was completely down for it the whole time.
Grace Reilly (10:40)
nice. Nice.
Jenna (10:41)
Especially
like my husband, he has this thing where he's when I don't know when, but he's gonna let the kids like pick out his next tattoo and sure shit, I think it's gonna be an octopus. Like like completely unrelated from this situation. it's I like probably gonna be a giant squid or something of cephalopod related. I don't know. 'Cause that's just those are my children.
Grace Reilly (10:53)
Fine.
cait (10:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (10:59)
Mm-hmm.
cait (11:03)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (11:05)
Yeah, I just thought it was I don't know. I like the concept of chefs being like kind of like dirty hot. you know, in the way that like they're like a little grimy, it's kind of gross, they're all sweaty. but then at the same time, they're very competent, and competent I think leads to a lot of
heroes and romance, the thing that makes them so irresistible is that core of competency in whatever it is. so like whether it they're, you know, I've written about athletes too, like being really good at a sport is a form of competency. Being like really amazing in the kitchen, same thing. and
You know, writing about somebody at the top of their game is very fun. and something that people really love to read about. So, you know, Jack is I mean, he's disgraced in the beginning, but he definitely is very talented. and yeah, it's just fun to pair that with like tattoos and a beard and like, you know, all of this kind of like rough and tumble stuff that's very different from Poppy's very polished veneer. so they make, you know, I think at least a pretty hot couple together.
Jenna (12:05)
I think they would make beautiful babies.
cait (12:06)
Dira.
Jenna (12:07)
So
cait (12:09)
No, I love this
Jenna (12:10)
like
cait (12:11)
boyfriend aesthetic for sure.
Grace Reilly (12:13)
Yeah.
Jenna (12:13)
Like
you described everything I ever like dream of in terms of like a book boyfriend and then I have like a very polished blonde blue eyed like husband that is the antithesis of it. I'm like, how did this happen?
Grace Reilly (12:20)
Ha ha ha.
cait (12:23)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (12:29)
Principally.
cait (12:30)
So when we got
the proofs though, I was like looking on the back and I realized too that they put the tropes and then I was like, Jenna, do you think that this is like I was like, I don't is this is this like a proof thing or is this on all the books now, like all like kind of romance contemporary romance books? And I think it looks like it is.
Jenna (12:52)
It's like a thing.
Grace Reilly (12:53)
Depends. It could be. I'm not actually not sure. I haven't gotten any any like final versions of Yeshef yet from Avon. I do think that a lot of readers are, and in myself as well, like it's really useful to have the tropes as kind of like a guiding light when you're picking out what to read. I know that sometimes people are like, well, I don't like to reduce a book down to tropes, but
Every s it's not just romance, like, you know, there are tropes in every single kind of book, every single piece of media. you know, if you're watching a crime procedural and there's no crime in it, then
you'd be disappointed, right? and you know with romance, if you're getting kind of like into the nitty-gritty where you're like, okay, like I'm expecting there to be grumpy sunshine and this, I'm excited about that. I find that the more you know about the book going in, not like specifics about what happens, but the more you can prime your expectations in romance, often the more you enjoy it because you're you're like going into something wanting it and being in the mood for it. So I'm all for the trope.
cait (13:30)
Yeah.
Jenna (13:30)
Little bet. Little bet.
cait (13:38)
Yes.
Jenna (13:52)
Like if
cait (13:52)
No, that's
yeah, like sorry, Jen, that's literally the one I was talking about 'cause it was like what set me off on it because it says grumpy it says grumpy sunshine and I was like, that's so much better than saying like enemies to lovers or anything. Like, give me grumpy sunshine.
Jenna (13:58)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (13:58)
Yeah.
Ha ha
Jenna (14:07)
Yes.
Because my so my best friend Jenny, my God. She's like, if I read another book that does not disclaim that it is an unexpected pregnancy trope, I'm gonna I'm gonna scream. And I'm she's like, they just sneak up on you and I don't expect it and I don't like it. And then I throw the book across the room.
cait (14:20)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (14:21)
Yeah.
I feel like I've I've never been surprised by that though. Maybe I just have never accidentally picked up one. Like I I personally like that trope. but I don't think I've ever not like I I don't think I've ever read a book and been surprised by experiencing it like halfway through the book or whatever. That's so strange to me. I don't know. Maybe maybe I just like haven't had haven't had that look, I guess. Because for me it would be enjoyable, but that's fine.
cait (14:57)
Yeah,
I mean I was fascinated by the tropes thing though on the back of the book. And I think we did we did go into a romance bookstore and notice that it is more common than I thought it was. Yeah. but it's pretty cool. And it's yeah, forks press forced proximity, friends with benefits, opposites attract and found family, everyone.
Jenna (14:58)
I think
Yeah. Yeah.
Grace Reilly (15:08)
Really?
Jenna (15:08)
Mm.
So if you were to describe the tropes of your next project without giving your project away, what would it be?
Grace Reilly (15:27)
boy. it's a little tricky because it involves some subgenre shifting. but I would say what you know, what I'm working on currently, what I was working on before I came on for this interview.
How to explain it? Like temporary marriage. kind of like a bit of an omega verse vibe, but not fully. shifter. Yeah.
Jenna (15:43)
ooh
my god.
cait (15:54)
All right, taking
us.
Jenna (15:57)
Dead
I'm so
Grace Reilly (15:58)
Not that I'm not writing
contemporary as well, but mm hmm.
Jenna (16:01)
But like
cait (16:01)
That's super
cool.
Jenna (16:04)
So are you really like writing multiple books at one time?
Grace Reilly (16:08)
well sort of. I mean I I finished something that is I think gonna be announced fairly soon. that's separate from what I was just saying. and that's more like Friends to Lovers, at a wedding, rom traum vibes. And then the thing that I'm talking about hopefully is gonna be next year at some point. And that's more like, you know, next like booked stuff,
there's always some element of overlap. There's diff you know, projects are in different phases. Like Yes Chef is still in progress in my eyes, because even though the book itself is completely done, like it hasn't come out yet. So I'm still in that promotional phase. So I just you could say that I'm working on
like three projects right now, if you include Yeshchef as one of them, you know, until it comes out, I feel like it's still like in the pipeline as something that's my responsibility to, you know, like really like pay attention to. And even after a book comes out, it kind of just you know, the life the lifespan of a book is like
the release date is like the tiniest part in the end, you know, because people discover books long after they come out. So it never really goes away. But yes, I would say that yeah, I'm working on a couple of different things at once, which is definitely hard. My ADHD is like
Girl, what the hell are you trying to do? yeah, it's been it's been really brutal, actually, to be fully transparent. But I'm trying my best because in publishing, especially trad publishing, the timelines are so long that you want to make sure that you're like sticking to them as much as possible because otherwise things can get kind of messed up down the line. And you know, you might end up having to shift to a different season or whatever.
Of releasing. whereas with Indie you you get more a little bit more flexibility because you could be like, all right, I'm gonna push it a month, but like just a month when it's only you doing it, you know. When you're answering to a corporation, it's like completely different. Scary. Yeah, it's scary. I won't deny it. Yeah, definitely different.
Jenna (17:55)
It's a little bit scarier.
cait (17:56)
Does he
Yeah, I I
totally that I mean it's understandable though. But that's fascinating. Before we came on and you were telling me too about
'Cause we have talked about this a lot with other authors, but just kind of like how the the timeline for even a release is and I was asking you if you're starting to get busy now or like when does it like truly cause your Yes Chef comes out July twenty first. So as we record this now, we're a little less than a month and a half away, but is it about to ramp up for a release time for you or like when does it truly kind of really like your I need to just focus on Yes Chef?
Grace Reilly (18:24)
Mm-hmm.
I
would say that, you know, after the book is completely done, when ARCs started first first started circulating, that was definitely a very busy period because it felt like I was really talking about it in more specificity for the first time since people were actually reading it. so a lot of social media, a lot of that kind of thing, you know, not that I'm monitoring reviews because I don't I don't read reviews, but just in general knowing that people are reading it, I have like a little bit more leeway to talk about it.
And then I would say as this month goes on leading into July, yeah, there'll be a lot of like, okay, like it's crunch time. I'm gonna be talking about this book a lot, and then I'll be doing events when it comes out. so I'll be traveling and, you know, going to different bookstores and chatting with people about the book, and that'll kind of be like the second half of July. So and that that'll probably be, you know, the busiest I'll be on a on like a back to back to back basis being like, you know, promoting the book left and right.
But honestly it ever really goes away fully because, you know, there's always something like, you know
the lifespan of a book is really long, but release is still important. so yeah, it's very nerve-wracking and you know that as an author there's like personal like goals that I want to hit and stuff and well, they can't really be goals 'cause I'm not in control of them. There are wishes that I would love to have happen for the book.
Jenna (19:55)
I like that.
That's very good mental like like t yes.
cait (19:59)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (19:59)
Trying my best, yes.
Trying my best. yeah, to only control the things I can control. Not super successfully, but at least I can try. it's very nerve-wracking, and I I feel very, very good about the book, which I'm happy about. like I was actually rereading parts of it the other day, and I don't normally do that. like I don't normally
to my old stuff. because it's very much it like it exists in a moment of time. You know what I mean? Like if I wrote if I started writing Yes Chef today, probably the book would be quite different than the book that I wrote last year, that became Yes, Chef which doesn't necessarily mean that it would be better, just different. You know, like you're always growing, hopefully, as a writer.
Like, you know, have different things that you want to focus on and different things you want to say. Like Yeshev specifically, a lot of like the ADHD angel came directly out of like realizing that I have it, you know, as like a 29-year-old woman, being like
okay, this put a lot of things into perspective that I did not even realize, right? and I think if I was writing it now with a little bit feeling a little bit more settled with the diagnosis, it would just feel different. So, you know, I don't normally go back because it it feels like it's representative of a very specific time in my life and a very specific kind of way that I was feeling and way that I was approaching the world. And I don't want to like drive myself crazy thinking about like all the ways that it could be different, you know? but in this case,
I'm still very happy with it. there's nothing that I wish was different about it, which is, I think, a pretty rare feeling for an author. so I'm like fully prepared to stand behind it. And I'm very happy with how it came out. It's just, yeah, very nerve-wracking to get to that point where people are gonna be reading it like, you know.
beyond the the confines of like Bootstagram and like people who want to read advanced reader hobbies. Like, you know, hopefully there will be many, many random people who I will never meet who will take them up at a bookstore and then read it. You know what mean? yeah, getting to that point is definitely very scary.
cait (21:53)
Ha ha ha
Jenna (22:00)
Like
the general public
Grace Reilly (22:02)
Yeah. No, the general
public. Exactly. Like yeah.
cait (22:04)
Okay.
Jenna (22:07)
But
I I love how you literally just like Cait you probably don't know this, but like Cait just published her book a couple weeks ago. Yeah, like yay, Cait, I'm gonna talk you up all day long. But but it's also like that being okay with what you create and allowing it to be that moment in time and it doesn't need to be perfect today and perfect a week from now.
Grace Reilly (22:15)
I did not know this, that's great.
He
Uh-huh.
Jenna (22:35)
It can be perfect from the moment that you did it and completed it and like sent it off into the world and learning to accept that kind of perfection and not the ongoing must sustain must be all present kind of
Grace Reilly (22:49)
Yeah. I mean
it's a huge struggle, believe me. It's it's as someone who's definitely a perfectionist, it's really hard to write sometimes, even just to get a draft down, because it's it's like great, I'm looking at something that is like total crap. Especially when you finish something and then you start something new. You're like, I went from the pretty polished thing that was past pages, so beautiful, like look at all my work to like this steaming pile of garbage in Word that I hate, you know?
cait (23:18)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (23:18)
but I will I will say that I think with Yes Chef, because I feel very good about the product and like how it turned out, I feel a little bit more insulated from criticism about it. I feel more comfortable taking a position and having a point of view with my books. And by that I mean like
If someone, for example, reads it, right, and isn't a big fan of Jack because they think he's like too mean, too grumpy, that's fine. That's totally okay. But that doesn't mean that I didn't accomplish what I wanted to do. Like that doesn't mean that there's anything at fault with that. I think really just being like, this is exactly what I wanted it to be, and your reaction to it has nothing to do with the quality of the work, you know, is it feels to me kind of like an advanced level of authoring that I've
like just kind of tiptoeing toward as I get further along. Because I I used to be very, very fragile when it came to like,
feeling like I didn't write it correctly if someone didn't like it, you know. But it's art, so there isn't really a correct way anyway. And I think, you know, as I got further along in publishing, and especially with Yes, Chef which I feel very good about what I did like artistically, if someone if it if someone doesn't like it, that doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the book or my intentions or how successful I was at creating the thing that I intended to.
Jenna (24:20)
Ooh.
Grace Reilly (24:40)
create, you know, 'cause every bookish opinion is really based on the personal experience that you bring into the book more so than like anything else. You know, you might just have like have a thing for heroes like that where it just like isn't your favorite. But that doesn't mean that I didn't write a successful version of that kind of hero. and yeah, I think that that's that's like a a growth piece that, you know
Jenna (24:49)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (25:05)
I can say now, but I probably wouldn't have said a year ago, you know? so
Jenna (25:08)
This is like author therapy today. Like
cait (25:12)
No, I'm
just I'm just taking it in 'cause that's what I need to hear. Yeah. Yeah.
Grace Reilly (25:16)
Yeah. No, I mean it's it's
really difficult for sure. But, you know, and I like like I said, I haven't I don't seek out reviews. Like I obviously I get tagged and stuff on Instagram, so I have seen like some of the things that people aren't resonating with as strongly, but it's still just for them, not for me, you know, and it doesn't have anything to do with, you know, the book itself or the job that I did on it and
Yeah, I like I'm really grateful for this book for that reason. Like I I think it I don't know. I maybe it was the process of writing something that I hated first and then writing this and being like I want it to be exactly what I want it to be, but like I feel I feel just like so confident about it that I really do not care about anybody's opinion on it. Like it it's a very weird feeling. I used to care a lot more.
Jenna (26:04)
It's like you unlock the next the next level of being an author. You're like, Yeah, I'm here now
Grace Reilly (26:10)
Yeah, I mean, I hope it stays. That would be really nice. I have a feeling it's gonna dip again as I kind of go into a slightly different area of publishing. but yeah, I you know I think it's it's especially easy with social media to be like my books are content. you know, I'm creating content for the internet. When in reality it's not that, it's art.
cait (26:30)
That's such a big company.
Grace Reilly (26:33)
and art is
specific. Art has a point of view. Art is something that not everybody is going to like by definition because there is no right or wrong when it comes to art. And it's very difficult to remember that when you're trying to put together an Instagram post about your book. It just is. you know, it feels like you're trying to appeal to people in a way that's like, I I'm just, you know, I'm putting myself out there.
Jenna (26:42)
Right.
Grace Reilly (26:58)
I'm putting my work out there, but it feels, you know, it feels like I'm I'm trying to get you to, you know, to buy something which is just it's just different than the the whole experience of doing art. You know, it's just two separate things and and finding a way to separate them is I think just like such such the challenge right now from a creative perspective. it's hard, it's it's weird.
Maybe it's just me, maybe other people don't feel this way, but I do feel like I literally had to remind myself to be like, Your books are art. They're not like, you know, you are artists making art. No, I mean
Jenna (27:29)
it's not just you.
cait (27:31)
Yeah.
Grace Reilly (27:33)
It it's very easy to be like, you know, this is this is content, but it's not content. It's different. you know, feeling feeling confident calling it art is I think even like that is like a a big hurdle to get over as a as a creator, especially with writing because
In some ways like writing is, you know, it's communication and like everybody can write. it kind can feel like the bar is a little like low sometimes in that it's just easy to devalue it, you know? when in reality it's like a really, really difficult skill. I wouldn't devalue like a painter's work, right? but for some reason it's so much it's so much easier for me at least to be like, yeah, this is just, you know, my like
writing scribble whatever thing and you know, anyway.
cait (28:18)
Yeah,
I sa I say that all the time 'cause my husband's a piano player and he's like, like one of the things that drives me crazy is every time I say like people ask me what I do, I'm like, I'm a piano player and they're like, I've always wanted to play piano or I took piano in high school and I'm like, What I do is very different than what you did in high school or whatever. And I'm like, Yeah, but at least that's a skill that like people have to learn and are open to saying, I don't know how to play the piano
Grace Reilly (28:23)
Mm-hmm.
cait (28:46)
I just played in high school and I'm like, what I do, what we do, is a skill everybody can do.
Grace Reilly (28:52)
Kind of this one.
cait (28:53)
And like
a lot of the times it's it's like, yeah, like am I not there? And it's like, I have an idea for a book, or it's like, yeah, I I used to write for my high school d and it's like I feel like yeah, sometimes it's just kind of taken as as content or whatever it is. And the other thing about content too is that like content is there's supposed to be a
A large quantity of it. You're supposed to make a ton of content. And I think that that's what's overwhelming about producing books to right now too. Is like it feels like content. So you're like have this pressure to like keep producing and keep producing. And so that's why that story about you saying like standing up for your work and standing up for what you want to put your name on and saying like this isn't the time for this book or what I want to be putting out there is like really honestly super inspiring because it is there there is a pressure to create
Grace Reilly (29:21)
Mm-hmm.
cait (29:43)
Okay.
Grace Reilly (29:44)
Yeah, I think that
that's a great point. Content being something that you're supposed to produce in volume. yeah, I mean it it can really feel like if you're not putting out the most, you're not doing anything at all. And it's it's hard to deal with that, as an author, especially with
amount of competition out there. And you know, on the one hand, it's great. Like from me as a reader perspective, I'm like, there's so many options of things to read. I'm so happy about this. But from an author perspective, it can be like, my God, this is a sea of people, all very talented, producing amazing work faster than me, apparently, it feels like it. and I'm just like the one that's like quietly like drowning. You know what I mean? Like it's just it's very difficult to to, you know, to get yourself
cait (30:22)
Yeah so fast.
Grace Reilly (30:31)
to feel like whatever you're doing is enough. And I'm not, you know, I don't it often does not feel like enough still.
But it's a great point. Like if you're gonna if you're gonna call it art, you're like, okay, well there is no timeline for art technically. Like, you know, n it's weird. No one would be like, my gosh, like Noah Khan, it took you this long to come out with another album. Like what? You know what I mean? Like I know Taylor Swift is very prolific, but if she went five years between albums, no one would be like, like, you know, what's wrong with her? You know, but for authors, I'm like, If I don't get two books out a year, you know, the I l like everyone's gonna figure out who I and like am I even an author?
cait (30:53)
He's like, How am I
Yeah.
Crazy.
Grace Reilly (31:07)
It's very difficult, I think in the romance space, especially, which is yeah, it's just hard getting that that trying to like munty off your back when it comes to thinking of of your work as something that you know doesn't need to be like rushed out.
cait (31:21)
Yeah. Well
Jenna (31:23)
This was like everything I needed to hear today. shit.
cait (31:25)
This is yeah, you're I wouldn't really worry about
Grace Reilly (31:26)
Ha ha
cait (31:28)
that right now for me. Like this is you're gonna be fine.
Jenna (31:31)
You will be fine.
cait (31:33)
You won't be
fine.
Grace Reilly (31:34)
See, I know.
I I'm I'm very curious what it's gonna be like when it comes out. yeah, I mean I'm I'm really lucky in that people have been enjoying it so far. but yeah, I'm I'm definitely like very anxious about about July. and just yeah, just wondering like what it's actually gonna look like when it when it's out on shelves and everything.
cait (31:52)
Yeah. It's not luck. It's
not luck. You worked really hard for this. So You wrote an amazing way. Like everybody's gonna love it.
Grace, thank you so much for joining us today. We are super excited for your book. This will come out on release day, so everybody listening, grab a copy Yes Chef. You won't be disappointed. So much.
Jenna (32:13)
You will not
