Sex Scenes Are Just Another Scene: How to Write Them Without Making It Weird
April 14, 2026
Featured Guest:
Susan Ferber
Susan Ferber is the author of The Essence of an Hour and We Were Very Merry, with her third novel What Other Years Have Done releasing September 2026.
Her work explores female identity, women’s relationships, and the complexities of love, desire, and power across time. She is particularly interested in how stories set in the past can shape our understanding of women’s rights today.
Susan is also a book editor and currently lives in London with her husband—yes, very much a romance novel setup.
Let’s just say it: writing sex scenes is weird… until it’s not.
In this episode of Margs & Manuscripts, we sit down with author Susan Ferber to talk about how to write sex scenes, why they matter in storytelling, and what separates a good scene from one that completely pulls the reader out.
This isn’t a “how spicy should your book be” conversation. It’s about craft—how intimacy functions in a story, how to write scenes that actually move the plot forward, and why sex scenes should be treated like any other scene in your book.
We get into the nuance of writing desire, tension, and connection—without overexplaining, overdescribing, or making your reader cringe. From dialogue-driven intimacy to the power of what you don’t show on the page, this episode breaks down what actually works.
We also talk about the bigger conversation around women writing sex, the double standard around “smut,” and why stories centered on female desire are still treated differently in publishing.
If you’ve ever wondered:
Do I need a sex scene in my book?
How explicit is too explicit?
Why do some scenes feel natural and others feel… off?
This one’s for you.
In This Episode
How to write sex scenes that feel natural and not forced
Why sex scenes should function like any other scene in your story
Writing intimacy through dialogue vs description
How much detail is actually necessary (and when less is more)
The role of tension, power, and emotional stakes in intimate scenes
“Spice” vs “smut” vs storytelling—what’s the difference?
Do you need to show consent and protection on the page?
Writing awkward vs polished intimacy (and why both can work)
What makes a sex scene cringe vs compelling
The double standard around women writing sex
Why romance and intimacy are often labeled as “lesser”
How reader imagination plays a role in writing intimacy
Whether a book needs a sex scene at allAnnouncements
If you liked this episode, make sure to follow Margs & Manuscripts wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our full episode library on our website.
You can also shop books from our featured authors (including Susan!) through our Bookshop—supporting both indie bookstores and the writers we love.
About the Book
The Essense of an Hour
It’s 1941, the last summer of American innocence, and eighteen-year-old Lillie Carrigan is desperate to love and be loved, to lose her virginity, to experience her life’s great, epic romance. Preoccupied with whiskey and cigarettes, sex and Catholic guilt, Lillie unknowingly sets in motion events leading to death and estrangement from her two best friends.
Connect with Susan
📸 Instagram: @susanfurberwrites
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Jenna G Judith (00:00.033)
Again. Okay. Okay, good.
Cait (00:01.06)
Keep this open, mine's open. Everything's good.
Jenna G Judith (00:07.168)
Maybe it's because...
Jenna G Judith (00:13.442)
Maybe it's because I do it on the desktop app because that seemed to be like the fastest of the two versus doing it in browser. So I think tomorrow I'm do it in browser and like in Chrome versus doing it via the app.
Cait (00:31.99)
Okay, that makes sense. That could be a thing.
Jenna G Judith (00:34.894)
Like I just...
Cait (00:37.956)
Cause I'm wondering, yeah, if for like the episodes we have coming up, I mean like, do we, are you feeling, like how are you, I'm going off of your feelings alone with this. I'm gonna have a bigger setup tomorrow because John's gonna come like actually like do a whole thing for me here with the Mac and microphone and stuff.
Jenna G Judith (01:02.125)
Okay, yep, it recorded everything. There it is. Thank Jesus. Okay. motherfuckers, I was about ready to like, I don't know, rage on that shit. So, it was because I opened my phone and I had my AirPods in. Yeah, and then everything like freaked the fuck out. I'm like.
Cait (01:16.45)
I mean, what's
Cait (01:23.45)
so then they went to your phone.
Jenna G Judith (01:29.975)
Let the fuck apple hand off! Knock it off! goodness.
Cait (01:35.45)
Dude, I am...
Jenna G Judith (01:43.02)
Cody just sent me this. This is, it may be backwards, but it said, buckle the fuck up bitches, I'm coming. And it says, are you cunts ready for a near death experience? And then like the tagline on the bottom says with a bag of liquor, drugs and weapons.
And it's like an old book cover that like someone edited. Like what the fuck? Are you gonna focus? No, you're not. Yeah. Like you're in a movie and you're texting me this shit.
Cait (02:12.378)
Are you okay?
Cait (02:20.922)
Well, my husband sent me a thing 25 minutes ago that said, home in 10 minutes.
Cait (02:30.138)
So, not a thing. I am so mad at them right now. I am so mad.
Jenna G Judith (02:31.891)
The math's not mathing on that one.
Jenna G Judith (02:38.421)
I did also get an apology text from coding.
Cait (02:41.186)
Okay, well that's good. John knows, John knows. He knows he fucked up.
Jenna G Judith (02:44.821)
John knows.
he is aware of his shortcomings.
Cait (02:50.336)
Yeah, I'm pretty mad. But I just had...
quarter of a bottle of wine, so I'm gonna be a little bit more chill about it than I was when I walked in the door.
Jenna G Judith (03:04.682)
How did the, how did the house showings go? The open house.
Cait (03:07.482)
Good. So she said there was like a lot of people who came. She said...
A lot of people just wanted to see the house, because it's a historical house in our town, like it's expected. she said three were serious. One of them wasn't here. They live in Long Island, so was their agent taking videos and stuff for them, but they're very interested. They asked for the inspection and all that. And then another one scheduled a second showing tomorrow.
So I'm hoping that a second showing means like, okay, we're bringing my parents and we're gonna make sure that, you know, like, and we are emotionally involved in this house. We just wanna like double check whatever before do measurements. I don't know what it is, but like, I'm really hoping.
Jenna G Judith (03:46.941)
Right.
Jenna G Judith (03:59.291)
A second showing essentially means, like, final gut check.
Cait (04:03.864)
Yeah, I'm hoping that that's a good thing. yeah, the real estate agent seemed like, hey, the house looked great. There's a lot of interest. good. So yeah.
Jenna G Judith (04:15.595)
good, I bet that's like a wait off that people actually like came and were interested.
Cait (04:20.474)
And we're interested, yes. And honestly, she's like, they've all like, the real estate agents made me feel very positive and stuff and like that somebody is going to buy it.
Jenna G Judith (04:29.801)
Good.
Jenna G Judith (04:33.564)
You're not going to be like burdened with two mortgages for six months.
Cait (04:37.998)
Right.
I just need it to happen. yeah, people were super interested and really excited about it. Also, we just live in such a small, in our county, there's probably five houses for sale at the moment. if you're moving, if you need to move, if you're trying to come here, this is your best option at the moment.
Jenna G Judith (04:50.514)
There you go.
Jenna G Judith (04:58.152)
Especially because in your price range, there's not a lot even like surrounding counties like your price range is like that really happy middle ground of like the house is nice. It is very much livable. It is updated where it needs to be updated. It's not a shithole and it's not a mega mansion.
Cait (05:19.042)
Yeah, you're not gonna come here and do like a ton of cosmetic stuff right away. Like it's like you can move in here and be fine until you want new countertops or whatever it is. And it's safe, and it's like an old house, but it's not like there's nothing that like, you don't need to repair the roof. Like it's all just kind of old house stuff. So yeah, I'm hoping for some type of offer this week after the second showing or whatever it is, know? Anyway.
Jenna G Judith (05:47.649)
So exciting! I'm so happy for you!
Cait (05:48.963)
I'm still a parent. I really like solo parented my children at the New Hampshire house since Friday. I picked them up from school and we just drove to New Hampshire. And so we had to do things. No. So actually my stepmom just came up with my brother because the New Hampshire house is actually closer to like where my family lives than.
Jenna G Judith (05:59.281)
Was your sister-in-law there?
Cait (06:14.394)
they are to hear. So they're only an hour and a half from the New Hampshire house, I'm like two, two and a half hours from it here. Anyway, so they came up yesterday for the night, and I had to leave pretty early this morning, but...
Yeah, I had to do, but like I solo parented all the kids, all the kids stuff that they wanted to do. Like when they're up there, they want to go to this like arcade that they go to. And then there's a candy store that they go to. And like all the things that they do when they're in New Hampshire, they, when they're at the vacation house, they have to go do their vacation things. So like I went to the arcade, I did the candy store, I did all the things with them. I didn't have the most.
So they have very specific traditions there.
Jenna G Judith (07:09.251)
And heaven forbid we deviate.
Cait (07:11.65)
Yeah, they're very specific. It's also like there's like a huge spa tub that they feel like they're in a pool. They have to like take multiple tubs a day.
Cait (07:30.809)
It's on the lake. They were asking me if they could go swimming in the lake. And I was like, no, it is 48 degrees outside. Like you cannot. And then my stepmom did a cold plunge in the lake. So then they got like, we want to go swimming in the lake. And I was like, this is not the same thing. It is not summertime. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I'm thinking about when you're here.
Jenna G Judith (07:51.394)
Children. Children.
Cait (07:55.099)
When you come, I'm like, I would love to do the beach stuff with you because obviously you're in Wisconsin so you don't get to the coast very often. I want to do the beach stuff, but I'm also like, the New Hampshire house is so sick. You guys would have your own wing of the house.
Jenna G Judith (08:03.83)
Nope!
Jenna G Judith (08:10.839)
Well, so...
So your thing is on Wednesday, the theater's on Wednesday, and then your party's on Friday.
Cait (08:20.438)
No, so I think I'm just not gonna have like a formal party. I think I'm just gonna do the theater thing and then we're just gonna be like, let's all meet at the bar down the street after. I don't wanna do like a, that's just too much. Like I'm just like a planning thing, like finding a space. I'm just gonna be like, thanks everybody for coming. We're going to the rendezvous down the street. Right?
Jenna G Judith (08:30.572)
Perfect, okay.
Jenna G Judith (08:41.399)
Yeah, let's just do that and then do whatever else the rest of the week.
Cait (08:50.52)
And then, so then we can kind of have our own time. The kids will be at.
school, like we don't pick them up from school till like at least five o'clock and then they can go to their grandparents or whatever. So like I'm not really worried about having any kids responsibilities while you're here. They won't be around very much, but either like me, us, like we can go to New Hampshire or we can go to my dad's, which is on the coast, on the beach.
Jenna G Judith (09:01.025)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna G Judith (09:21.206)
Mm-hmm.
Cait (09:22.818)
Yeah, I'm just trying to plan it out because like the New Hampshire house is just like it's literally like seven bedrooms. Like it's just so, you would just be so comfortable there. You know what mean? And it's like right on the lake. We could swim. We could do New Hampshire, New England stuff. Like it would be fun. Also like, yeah, there's also the beach and then you guys are going to come back to us. I'm not.
Jenna G Judith (09:36.981)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (09:42.916)
Yes we are! I was having this moment over the weekend for some reason. I don't know why it was like...
looking at, I think I was in the Google Drive and I was like, look, the legal shit folder. I was just struggling to myself. like, so a year, not even a year ago, like we had, we didn't have this thing. We didn't know each other. We had not met. And then all of a sudden now I'm like, we have an LLC, we have a podcast that's booming.
We have a website, have all this stuff and I'm just like...
How cool is it that I get to be best friends with Cait for fucking ever now?
Cait (10:31.675)
I think I was looking at pictures of even last year or something, was looking at pictures of the kids when they were younger and I was like, how weird is it that I had literally no idea that this was all gonna happen and that the sport I've been working on for so long is coming out and then we'd have this thing and then, no, I had a very similar thought too.
Even talking to my stepmom over the weekend where she was just like, she's so like, she loves it all. Like she's like, I talk about it with my coworkers and like, everybody's gonna buy the book and like, it's so cool. And she asks me so many questions about the podcast and she's very, she's a big supporter. But I was telling her about the Herbert Collins authors and stuff and she was like, I feel like that happened really quick. And I was like, it did.
Jenna G Judith (10:59.923)
So cute.
Jenna G Judith (11:12.991)
You're a cat,
Cait (11:16.175)
I was like the craziest thing I was like it took us exactly four months to hit a thousand streams. Which was like a very big deal and then I was like in the last 30 days we've had 500. So we're going to cut that time in half. Yeah. I was like it's going to be two months before we get our next. Like we're already at 1500 like. Two months before we hit another thousand so like we've doubled.
Jenna G Judith (11:23.089)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna G Judith (11:28.006)
Mm-hmm. I was looking at the stats this morning.
Cait (11:43.419)
our downloads in that amount of time. And my goal has always been a thousand downloads in a month. Like that's when I feel like I've like truly made it doing this, like, not that our numbers are bad, but that's when I'm like, okay, we can really ask people for money now. And like, you know, now we're serious, but I was like, oh my God, we are not far. We're doing what we're doing and like the things that are working, like we're not far.
Jenna G Judith (11:49.969)
Hm.
Jenna G Judith (12:04.761)
No! No. No, and this the stats even like the week over week I was looking at like the last what was it like the last 30 days versus the last 90 days you can see it doesn't hit zero that much anymore of like zero downloads a day even like yesterday we have like 16 downloads on a Saturday? What?
Cait (12:31.621)
Yes. Honest, our seven day average has gone up significantly. Now it's like over 110. I feel like it's been like average at 111-ish for a few weeks now on this new level that we've been on.
Jenna G Judith (12:41.724)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Cait (12:52.283)
And I'm like, I've always wanted that to hit 200, but I'm just like, over 100 a week, like I'm really, it just shows growth. I think that is like the end of the day. It's like, you're not plateauing, you're growing.
Jenna G Judith (13:04.452)
Mm hmm. Yes. And there, people are doing the backlog. It like, even when I'm making the posts and everything, I'm like, wow, this is episode 20. And it still feels fresh. And it doesn't feel like we're trying too hard. And we're in this really cool, happy medium of we're making really great strides and really great progress, but it's not exhausting. Like it's not. It doesn't feel
iterative, it doesn't feel like I'm doing the same shit every week at all.
Cait (13:42.977)
No, not at all. And I was even like, hey, like even with the scheduling thing, I'm like, fuck it, I'm just gonna send this out to like who I've been telling, we'll get them on, we'll get them on. And I'm just like, whatever, like fill out this form, schedule your time now that we have times open and whatever. And then I'm like, I'll just get all my backlog people out of the way.
You know, like all the ones that I've been like, okay, yeah, like I would love to do an episode on that. We'll just get it out of way. Like Susan, like obviously obsessed with her, her, but like somebody who's been on my backlog for super long time that I'm like, hey, Susan, schedule a time. Like, here you go. You know, like it's like those people. So I'm like, okay, the next two months might feel like we are doing this kind of like a recording at least like maybe twice a week over once a week. But
Jenna G Judith (14:29.464)
Mm-hmm.
Cait (14:31.491)
then we'll have this great backlog and then in the summer we'll be able to just like take a month off of recording or whatever it is. Like I think it's going to be really helpful in the long run. Whereas I thought like maybe we would stop and take the summer off, but I'm like we can't stop.
Jenna G Judith (14:48.31)
No! my god, no! Don't make me stop.
Cait (14:51.023)
I'm like, don't need a season two right now. I don't need to stop season one and then come back in the fall and do season two. I was like, I'm just gonna keep growing. I was like, maybe in August we take a two or three week hiatus from whatever and then we come back for season two. I think I'll feel, once we hit the 30 episode mark, I'll feel like season one feels good. Let's focus on what our plans are for season two, but.
Jenna G Judith (15:12.792)
Mm-hmm.
Cait (15:17.133)
We'll see when we get there, you know, if we're needing a break or how we're feeling.
Jenna G Judith (15:22.499)
Yeah. And I think we are reaching newer audiences too, which is going to be helpful. It will give us like more content ideas. But I don't know what it is. I don't think we have like this really crazy secret sauce. But why? Like everyone keeps saying they're like, it's so refreshing. It's so fun. I love listening to it. I'm like,
But I, sure, yes, I will take all the compliments, but I'm just like, why has no one done it like this before? Like, why has this never been a thing?
Cait (16:03.321)
Yeah, I don't know. And I'm still, I always think I've found all of the book writing podcasts and then I keep discovering more and I'm still just like, we're on a different level. Or even if it's like follower count or whatever it is, like I'm still like branding follower count, we're still like on another level. Like they're still not doing it like this. They're still not doing it like this.
Jenna G Judith (16:25.214)
Nope.
Cait (16:26.299)
Even tomorrow, so like, I'm so fucking excited to talk to women tomorrow. I am dying. I'm gonna die now.
Jenna G Judith (16:33.623)
I didn't finish the book yet and I'm fucking like dying to finish. I'm like, it's a long book, but it's a, it is, it is great.
Cait (16:39.799)
Yeah, I haven't finished it yet. I'm going to finish it literally right before we record.
Cait (16:49.627)
How do you write like that? I don't know.
Jenna G Judith (16:51.218)
don't know. But it was, it's beautiful. And I, yes, I'm of course, like I'm picturing the John Adams series and all that stuff. But I'm like, this is cool. Like this is, it reminded me of your MFA story of everyone talks about the man and the man's perspective, but like,
fucking Abigail Adams has lots to say and she's fucking delightful.
Cait (17:24.25)
Yeah.
Cait (17:27.583)
She's literally the fucking best and I've always had a love for Abigail Adams and I used to work at the Green Dragon, little note back. I'm gonna share that tomorrow, but I used to work at the Green Dragon, you Spartan or whatever. This is all, we should just do like pre, we should talk about it tomorrow pre, like record ourselves talking about it now before they come on because I think it looks so golden, but I fucking cannot wait. I am, I'm just gonna like, I'm definitely gonna ask her which.
Jenna G Judith (17:46.815)
Okay. Okay, cool.
Cait (17:57.168)
I'm going to ask them which founding fathers they think they would smash or pass.
Jenna G Judith (18:02.75)
Yes.
Cait (18:03.843)
It's a big thing for me.
Jenna G Judith (18:07.23)
It's a big personality trait.
Cait (18:09.243)
I have founding fathers that like I feel like we're sexier than other ones and how I picture them
Jenna G Judith (18:14.421)
Okay, have you seen... I'm no, no, I'm gonna save it for tomorrow because this is is good. This is gonna be good. Yep. Yep. We do have to do Susan's intro.
Susan's intro and then I have like one or two announcements. Yeah, so hang on. Let me pull up my document. Also, fun fact, guess what I did this weekend?
Cait (18:29.209)
Okay, perfect.
Jenna G Judith (18:43.154)
I physically wrote. yes, I physically wrote all I did. All the parameters I gave myself was A, I got a really nice new notebook. Like I'm fucking obsessed with it. Have you ever tried the Karst notebooks? they're so good. You can get them at Barnes and Noble. Their website's always like super sold out. But it's made out of stone. It's not made out of paper pulp. So
Cait (18:46.331)
I saw you posted that.
Jenna G Judith (19:11.922)
the paper is baby bottom soft, like smooth. And it like the writing feeling because I'm absolutely obsessed with stationery and like I follow like the Japanese stationery like Instagram accounts because I love finding new pens and highlighters and paper products and all of this stuff. Anyways, yes, physically wrote and I'm like got a little hand cramp. I'm like, okay, I get why I type now, but it was...
Cait (19:17.189)
Does it smell?
Jenna G Judith (19:40.979)
delightful. It was just this happy moment where I didn't have to try. I didn't edit myself. I just wrote part of like the story of like things that I would wish my characters would talk about.
Cait (19:53.469)
See? Physically right. There is a connection between your brain and what comes out on the paper when you're doing it through your own body. I don't know.
Jenna G Judith (19:56.541)
Physically right.
Jenna G Judith (20:04.486)
And it was, it was, I felt creative when I like, yes, and when I'm at it, I don't feel creative. I feel like tense and tight about it because I'm like, I want this perfect, but I haven't felt creative about my story in a while. So this is really nice. And I'm gonna like do this more often, I think, at least to get through some of this editing fucking garbage I have to do.
Cait (20:07.98)
Right, there's less pressure.
Cait (20:30.756)
I love that for you. think that when I do that, and that's why I write that way every time first. Because I feel like when I'm typing on the computer, I can just be like, delete, delete, delete. And I feel like there is some sort of pressure for perfection when I'm typing that I don't have when I'm just writing it by hand. But I don't know why. So I always write everything by hand. Yeah, it makes a difference. That's awesome.
Jenna G Judith (20:38.319)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (20:51.003)
That's true.
Cait (21:00.784)
That's super cool you did that. And yeah, a new notebook will put you in the mood.
Jenna G Judith (21:05.296)
Everyone needs a new notebook. That's my plug for the week.
Cait (21:08.186)
all in notebooks you want.
Jenna G Judith (21:10.256)
I literally am looking at a stack right now that I took off of my bookshelf because I like was running out of room for books. So now I need a room or a place for my notebooks and Cody's just he's baffled by my need for stationary products.
Cait (21:13.413)
Hahaha!
Cait (21:30.916)
It makes a difference, Cody. It does.
I'm gonna do Susan's.
Jenna G Judith (21:41.358)
Yes, please. Who are we talking to this week, Cait
Cait (21:48.039)
beyond excited. Susan has been somebody that I have been saving this episode for like the exact right time. this week I literally was like, Susan, I'm feeling it. Like, what are you doing this week? I need to get you on and I'm so excited to talk about this topic. And she's so cool and she was immediately ready to go. So I need to introduce her properly. But Susan Ferber, she was born in Buffalo, New York. She's the author of The Essence
An Hour and We Were Very Merry which is like I just fucking love that title. That's so cute and her upcoming book comes out with September What Other Years Have Done?
and that's gonna be published by Valley Press. Susan writes about feminine and the female identity as well as women's friendships and doomed romances. So she's got it covered. She's particularly interested in how setting stories in the past can inform our understanding of women's rights today.
Jenna G Judith (22:49.003)
Yes!
Cait (22:50.32)
never more accurate. She's also a book editor and lives in London with her husband and has the most perfect wonderful life.
Jenna G Judith (22:59.874)
Like you, she is who we picture when we think of the perfect bookish life. Like,
Cait (23:05.296)
Yes, I love her and I'm recording this intro after we've already talked to her and I geeked the fuck out talking to her because she is so cool.
Jenna G Judith (23:14.218)
And I just I just want to be her. I want to be as chic as she is. I want to have that accent and not sound like a Canadian. But I also want just her life top to bottom. Like how can you be as cool as Susan? I don't know. don't know. Yep. But it was delightful. So we we I am going to have one tiny disclaimer on this topic.
Cait (23:21.462)
Thank
Cait (23:30.704)
I don't know. She's just so So welcome to Susan.
Jenna G Judith (23:41.447)
is all about sex scenes. So if you're not comfortable talking about sex, we rarely have like these types of disclaimers on any episodes. But if you're not comfortable talking about sex, that's totally cool. That this may be an episode where you get like five minutes and you're like, maybe not today. But all of those sensitive ears, cover them. Anyone below the age of 18, please go listen to another one. Nope, screw that. No.
Cait (24:09.788)
We outline that episodes can get a little explicit. We don't censor language or anything, but it's a fun chat with your writer friends about the experience of writing sex scenes. If you're down, if you're a clean author and you don't write them and you have no interest, then totally fine.
Jenna G Judith (24:25.055)
Yes.
Jenna G Judith (24:30.156)
totally fine. But also we dive deep into the topics of feminism about sex scenes from the female perspective versus the male. And it's also a lovely conversation about what books we read when we were younger that gave us a new perspective on what literature could be. So it's not just all dirty sex talk. Granted, you know, there is alcohol involved.
Cait (24:58.638)
I'm good.
Jenna G Judith (24:59.915)
But please enjoy the episode. We're very excited about it. If you did not see on social media this week, but we launched our website. It is a labor of love and it is going to be all things Margs and Manuscripts where you can find all of the guests that we had on the show. It has a link over to our merch shop and also very excitingly we have our bookshop on our site. So any book you buy through our
Bookshop is a means of supporting not just us but also our author guests. It goes through bookshop.org which is a place for independent bookshops or it's a place for independent bookstores to give more of the profits back to the authors versus shopping at some of like the bigger stores like Amazon or Target or any of those. So if you want to support our authors or if you want to help support us,
shop through those links. Super awesome. And anytime that we have authors on from now on, or anytime we have authors as guests from now on, you will be able to find all of their books in our bookshop.
Yay, cool. So buckle up, enjoy the episode and let us know what you think about it at the end. No, that was dumb. That was stupid. I'm to do something different.
Jenna G Judith (26:27.795)
Okay, we hope you enjoy this episode. And afterwards, maybe comment on social media or leave a comment on the podcast about what's your biggest cringe when reading sex scenes?
Yay! Okay, cool. Cringe. I think that was everything. I'm gonna stop recording.
Cait (00:00)
Susan, you have been on our list for so long to get in touch with, so thank you for being available. We've been dying to talk to you. Every time you come up on social media, I'm always like, oh my god, she is so cool.
Jenna G Judith (00:08)
And I'm
Susan (00:13)
god, that is like... making me make a baby, because I'm...
Cool.
Cait (00:18)
You are so cool. Yes. And it was so, I was very validated as soon as I emailed you and I was like, hey, do you like, do you want to come on and like talk about what we're going to talk about? And she was, and you were like, yeah, I'm in England. And I was like, God damn it. You were so cool.
Jenna G Judith (00:18)
I feel the same way most days.
Cait (00:36)
So what is it in, I totally want to get to our topic and we will. What's the ⁓ to London? Is it your husband? Did you grow up living there? Like what's the, how did you end up in London? Were you always?
Jenna G Judith (00:40)
We'll arrive there eventually.
Susan (00:50)
Yes,
I'm originally from Buffalo, New York, or kind of like a small suburb outside of there. And I came over, gosh, 14 years ago to study at Oxford. And then I met my husband and then I've just kind of never left. So yeah, like we got married quite young so I could purposely stay in the country. So we say, I'm married to a convenience, conveniently we loved each other.
⁓ So yeah, so that's why I'm here. He's from London and we've just met at university and yeah, that's kind of, we live in, as I said, kind of a one bedroom flat in Pimlico and we are both obsessed with books. ⁓ So yeah.
Cait (01:31)
my gosh.
Jenna G Judith (01:32)
that
Cait (01:32)
You're living the dream. You are living the dream.
Jenna G Judith (01:33)
like yeah cheers to that ⁓ god so you're telling me essentially you are living a romance novel
Susan (01:34)
Yes.
you
Cait (01:43)
I
know.
Susan (01:43)
I mean, I wish! I wish it was as exciting as that. I feel like now I'm in like the bit after you end it and it's not that exciting anymore, but... For a year! For a year I was living it.
Cait (01:54)
amazing. So the history here is that Susan hit me up. ⁓ Susan's been a friend of the pod. She's been listening since day one and we've been in touch with her and she's awesome. ⁓ But she hit me up and she was like, dude, let's chat about sex scenes. And I was like, absolutely. This is something we haven't covered yet. We briefly touch upon it in a few episodes and every time we touch upon it, I'm like, we need to do a whole episode on this, but we need the right person to
come in and like really like get in the weeds with us about this topic because Jenna and I like we have varying degrees of varying degrees of spice I am a little baby baby author when it comes to sex scenes Jenna is a little bit more experienced in writing them and I feel like Susan like
Jenna G Judith (02:34)
Very different. Very different.
Cait (02:46)
you can just talk a little bit more about your personal experience and opening up and what works for you and what doesn't work. I don't know, I'm literally just, I'm here to learn.
Susan (02:56)
Yeah!
Jenna G Judith (02:59)
You
Susan (03:00)
I mean, I write sex scenes because I enjoy reading sex scenes. like, I think it's... A book should cover what life is, and it's such a part of life. And I don't know, maybe it's because I grew up in a very conservative Catholic household. It was like, never speak about sex. Then from like quite young, 13, 14, when I wanted to be a writer, was like, I want to include sex scenes. It's sort of this rebellion, I think, in a way.
Jenna G Judith (03:04)
Me too! Yes!
Susan (03:30)
And then also, like even reading books around that time, I was just imagining sex scenes in them. ⁓ So even though they clearly is not there in Wuthering Heights, I was like, yes, they definitely do. And I reread it like recently and I was like, where did you think it was? Like where were you convinced? But I remember this memory that was definitely there.
Jenna G Judith (03:47)
Right, right, so.
Mm hmm. And even when you watch this is a mild tangent, don't care. When you watch the movie, everyone's like, this isn't the book. I'm like, it's not supposed to be the book. Like it's supposed to be that excitement that you had when you first read it. You're like, wow, this is an epic love story. But it's not like it.
Susan (04:12)
Yes, I
completely agree. And I felt like I gave that to me. And I was like, ⁓ like this is my 13 year old brain gone mental, but like it's not there. But it's kind of about like that reader perception of it. And I think that that kind of brings me back to what I like writing in sex scenes is it's both about being somewhat graphic enough or detailed enough, but then launching it into the reader's own imagination and what they can.
Jenna G Judith (04:15)
Yes!
Yes!
Susan (04:39)
do with it and what they want to be there or not to be there. ⁓ So I think sometimes less is more, but you have to give something. So maybe I'm like between the two of you. So my favorite sex scenes in literature, I think is ⁓ in James Baldwin, his writing. I just find it phenomenal.
another country. Again, I recently reread it in preparation for this so I could name drop it. To me, I remember reading that book, gosh, I was 20 years old and there was just this one sex scene and I was sitting in a cafe and I was like, I don't know if I can get on with the rest of my day because this is this powerful and impactful and it's so transgressive and it's just about this couple that's getting together for the first time and there's so much hate but
You get love and just like they're alone and yet they're together. I don't know. It's just everything that ever goes into that very intimate moment just unpacked and explored and through lots of metaphors. And yeah, this is quite detailed. Like there's lots of smells and you get those feelings of touch and ⁓ it's very visual and it's writing. And so that kind of is always my go-to point. I cannot write as well as Baldwin. He was a genius.
But that's kind of my go back to point. Like how did I feel when I read that scene met with a lot of other scenes that I love from literature like Lady Chatterley's Lover or ⁓ another example is like I really love Ellen Hollinghurst And I think
when writing sex and I think sometimes when people like get so weird about it is in writing it, certainly in reading it, but even in writing it is because they're like, I'm writing a sex scene rather than it just being like, I'm writing a scene and this is what needs to happen in the scene. So for me, I really love writing dialogues. So I don't like writing descriptions that much. My whole thing is like, how do you get people to interact with each other? Where, how do they ping off of each other? What in the world are they going to say? You put two people in a room.
Jenna G Judith (06:28)
Hmm.
Susan (06:41)
and what happens. So that to me is a scene. It's about what has to be accomplished between these two people. What do they both want from this? What do they not want from it? What alchemy comes from it? And I think if you think of it as this dialogue and also, you know, when you're writing dialogue, you do cut out certain words that you don't need or, you know, the commonplace things that like, yeah, we get that you wouldn't put that in a book. That to me is writing a sex scene as well as how do you trim it and convey what you need to.
within that kind of set limit of space.
Jenna G Judith (07:14)
And it's like you omit the things that would almost like pull the reader out of the scene. Like you want, you want the scene to be like every piece of it was needed and not having readers like gloss over the in-between or gloss over the transitions. Like you want all of it to feel like this like tumultuous storm that has multi-facets to it.
Susan (07:19)
Yes.
Jenna G Judith (07:43)
And without one it doesn't exist. it's almost it's like pun intended. It's like chemistry.
Susan (07:50)
Yes, and you're kind of like, what
are these two people going to do? And I think it's kind of like, my favorite scenes are like, could these people like kill each other right now? Could they like, like there's like almost like a violence there sometimes. And I think it's just so like emotional and as a reader, you're like, yeah, what you then feel part of that. And you, I think like with all, you know, parts of literature, you feel triggered into your own memories or into your own experiences and how you relate to that text.
Jenna G Judith (07:55)
Great!
Cait (08:01)
Yeah, I think yes.
Jenna G Judith (08:02)
Yes. Yes.
Cait (08:07)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (08:20)
I agree. When you mentioned how there needs to be a result at the end of this scene and you treat it like any other chapter or scene, it needs to move the story along. The whole time you were talking I was just thinking about, there's this one scene in my book ⁓ that I came up with the end before I even wrote the sex scene itself. And it was...
Like something needed to happen. Like she had to deny him. She had to like deny herself. But I'm like, how do we get there? And then I like just worked backwards. And it made that scene so much stronger when I had to come back and edit it. I'm like, wow, this one like actually has that drive and the purpose. And it feels like the pace is correct. Because I started with the end in mind and then went back and kind of wrote their journey through
Susan (09:15)
So if it doesn't serve the story or it doesn't serve the characters and it's just there, again, like a piece of dialogue or a piece of description, does it actually need to be there then? So how does it move things forward, I think is the idea.
Jenna G Judith (09:15)
Mm-hmm.
Cait (09:28)
This is the only, my book that's coming out is the only time I've ever written or had any experience writing a sex scene. And it was like very much part of her, still like she needed to do it. Like she needed to have this experience with somebody who wasn't like her long-term relationship or whatever, but it was like, I'm so awkward at this that I'm just going to, I was like, I'm gonna lean into that. I'm gonna make this feel really
Susan (09:34)
Okay.
Cait (09:55)
for them because it's not always like, yes, I was like, want this like really deep desire because there is just like infatuation and desire between these characters and it's like deep, but they're both very awkward. There's like a lot of banter. There's just like trying to get to that like point of where they both want to get to, but they're like, I just, I have to make this feel as real as
possible to have two people that are just like really good at like like playing the game and like leading into the chemistry and like getting there really naturally is just not how real that is for me personally.
Jenna G Judith (10:32)
Yeah
when I read your sex scene because I know you were you were so nervous about it. But I read it I'm like this is Cait like this is like so real and tangible and like tactile and it was just it was so fun and it was that moment in her life that I'm like that is like a snapshot that you'll never forget and it was so
It was so funny, but not in like a funny haha, but funny in that you could capture a moment like that so well without it feeling like you're trying too
Cait (11:12)
when I was writing it. I've I'm like I said, I'm a baby when it comes to even reading Like this material just because I just grew up reading the classic like I just didn't like you Susan like I just it wasn't something that was even like in Mainstream stuff that I was picking up for such a long time that literally my sexual awakening when it came to reading was like fourth wing
Jenna G Judith (11:37)
Essentially.
Cait (11:37)
It was like very
recent, yeah, and I was just like, ⁓ this is what they're writing now. Like, I like it. I'm like a fan. I don't dislike it, but like now that I've picked up a lot more kind of contemporary romance books and stuff, I'm noticing like trends of people needing to check boxes in their scenes that are like, okay, I need to make sure that they're having safe sex. I need to make sure that it's consensual.
like they're adding in like kind of dialogue that feels like, is this okay for you? Are you sure? Are you sure? And the woman has to be like, yes, let's do it. You know, like, and I'm like, is that always, that doesn't feel as natural to me, but are we supposed to be checking these boxes now? Is everybody supposed to be like on the same page about whether two characters in a consensual and safe all the time? I don't know.
Jenna G Judith (12:24)
idea.
Susan (12:25)
tricky and I think like ⁓ I know for instance Sally Rooney and her most recent book Intermezzo which I have a lot of thoughts on Sally Rooney. ⁓
Cait (12:33)
Yeah, me too.
I feel like we can really connect over Sally Rudy thoughts.
Susan (12:40)
One, I don't like how she writes sex scenes and it really bothers me because I'll get to that in a second. But I did like this. did like how in her recent book she had these two characters and they were quite like awkward characters. So like the one was like, do you have protection? And then he's like, I do have. So like it made sense that these people would be checking in with each other about that. And like, she's also really writing about millennialism and kind of.
know, the way ways we speak now with each other and everything like that. So it felt more natural. But yeah, I think it is. It is it's a difficult one to navigate, which is, you know, should should we always be checking in when we have sex? Yeah, of course. And we should be making sure that sex is consensual. But does that does that happen in such an obvious way all the time? Not necessarily. And so how do you reflect that? And then I also think, as I said,
books have to reflect all types of sex. And certainly my books, I write about non-consensual sex. I write about what that feels like, what happens when that happens to you, or you don't know how to interpret what happened. ⁓ So I it is good that we've moved away from the kind of like Gone With The Wind, Bodice Ripper, kind of like, I don't want it. And then she wakes up in the morning, she's like, my God, it was the most amazing thing. And he knew that I always wanted.
Cait (13:54)
Yeah.
you
Susan (14:01)
⁓ now I'm a real woman. Like that's really good that we move beyond that. ⁓ But yes, like there's such a thorny, difficult subject that it can't ever really be safe. ⁓ So I think you can have characters not having safe sex and still make that like, that's not a good, you're not necessarily moralizing in the book. Like you can read them and be like, well, that's not good that they've done that ⁓ or all that kind of stuff. it.
Cait (14:28)
Yeah.
Susan (14:28)
it needs to, I think, both reflect life and also challenge us. And we can challenge what we're reading as well and say, that's not, that's not, that is toxic. That's not good. Or I quite like that, but I recognize that that's toxic. What's going on there? Which is probably most of my reading experience. See whether I get the details.
Cait (14:45)
And I think
at some point too, even if the dynamics are safe and it's gonna be a sex scene that you want to happen and it's all great and it's all good and it's all consensual, but there's also like suspending disbelief at some point, right?
you're not describing a whole thing where your character's putting on a condom. I'm just gonna suspend disbelief that there's an alternative form of birth control happening unless she ends up pregnant in another part of the book. Like I don't need like a paragraph about, did you bring a condom? No, do you have a condom? Should we go get a condom? you have, like, and I'm like, just, I'm gonna just assume everything's good, you guys. Like you don't need to track all the parts. Yes.
Susan (15:31)
Yeah, just to add up to anything, like, is this
about, like, he says he does, and then, like, he's kind of a bit of a cat of a character, and, like, he just used an old one, and, you know, he's a good old man. I don't know, like...
Cait (15:40)
Exactly, like, let's just assume maybe that this
Jenna G Judith (15:41)
you
Cait (15:44)
is happening off stage somewhere. don't know. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think it's like nose meters.
Susan (15:46)
What purpose is it serving? I don't know. Or are they like teenage characters where that's really,
Jenna G Judith (15:51)
Even like...
Susan (15:53)
really important that they check in on this? I don't know. It's...
Jenna G Judith (15:56)
Yes,
and it's like every part of the scene needs to be important to the scene's purpose. And if that isn't part of the purpose, I think we kind of get a pass. Like you don't need to talk about that if it's not going to be impactful of this progression of the story.
Susan (16:08)
Yeah!
Cait (16:14)
Right, think, well it's probably dependent too, but I think there's, I get really frustrated with, we could do a whole episode on this too, which is like, the readers that can't suspend disbelief at all, so like, when I was beta reading or whatever, there was like, those were like, my scene was like, she gets, you know, she gets on a motorcycle or whatever, and they're like, well she had a backpack, where's her backpack? Did she put her backpack on when she got on the motorcycle?
Jenna G Judith (16:40)
HAHAHA
Susan (16:41)
I say this to you, okay, so I will bring this back. I will bring this back to the point. So my first book, my first book, there's this scene where they, the young couple, they go for like this picnic together, not even a picnic, that's the whole problem. They go to a lake in the height of summer and they don't actually end up having sex, but it's one of the most romantic kind of sexual moments of her life because she realizes, it's the first time she ever shows like herself naked to a boy and he sees her naked and she realizes she wants to have sex and then everything goes wrong.
Anyway, it's supposed to be a very moving love story scene. My husband reads it and goes, but what did they have for lunch? I'm like, are you kidding me? He's like, well, the character of Teddy definitely would have wanted to bring a beer. I can't imagine him having this whole scene without having a beer. I'm like, are you serious? This is what you're thinking about. Is it that they had lunch or not? And I think they probably didn't, but.
Cait (17:33)
Yes, exactly.
So this is my thoughts on the sex scenes. I'm just like, can we just all agree that they both are consenting to this if this is what the scene is giving?
Susan (17:47)
I suppose we can go back to this in a second as well, it's like, who are you writing for when you write those scenes? And I think you kind of need to write them for yourself in some regard. I mean, it's like, I think Robert Frost says a quote about no tears while writing, no tears while reading. So I just apply that to sex scenes. So if like,
it needs to be arousing, I think, to everybody. ⁓ And so I go in with that. And then I have one particular friend that I'm like, I really want her to enjoy this. So I'm going to write this for her. And I think she's a pretty good sort of stand in for a general reader. ⁓ But aside from that, as I said, it's really based on what I've loved to read myself in that. And well, all of my writing is based on what I would want to read, but in that in particular.
mean, the second book I wrote is about a marriage that goes wrong. is it based on my husband? No. Because we're still married. You know, is it kind of somewhat entangled within our relationship? Yes. And I think he...
Cait (18:42)
Such a good example though, yeah.
Susan (18:54)
he felt quite flattered by the portrait of potentially somebody that might've been representative of him in no possible way. It is nothing like him, but there you go. So I think, yes, and I think you just have to kind of suspend that caring in a way, and that has to be ultimately not selfish, but just detached. ⁓ yeah, but I think you are right. And it is both, I think it goes to all writing that
It is both you and it's not you at the same time.
Jenna G Judith (19:26)
so my my day job I'm a user experience strategist, so I am always telling my clients you are not your user. So don't make decisions based off of solely you. You are one of your users, but you are not the user. So we like do all these audience personas and we like strategize what does this audience need? Is that audience need? And
I'm so used to that. So when I got to write these sex scenes, or really just like my book in general, it was like, I'm not even gonna think about who this is for. I just want to vomit it out. Like very visceral reaction, but like, I just need to get it out. And what I found was I took probably like the mild forms of my personality and I exploited them until like they were almost, they were toxic at points.
Susan (20:21)
Hmm.
Jenna G Judith (20:22)
for this
character. And same with like her relationship or same thing with her friends. It's like I took moments from the people around me and I just amplified them and it turned out really, really cool. And I'm very excited for people to read it, but I need to finish editing it. But ⁓ it was, it was another one of those moments of this isn't me. This isn't for me. This is something that just came out of.
me. But you you aren't your work solely and your readers aren't your sole audience.
And it's a lovely Venn diagram of who the books are actually for.
Susan (21:04)
No, completely agree.
Cait (21:06)
when you decide to include whatever type of sex scene you're gonna write, whether it's like has all the words that everybody hates and you like makes people uncomfortable or it's gonna be romantic or whatever type of sex you decide to include in your book, you're opening yourself up to...
that type of criticism, which is fine. And I think ⁓ there's gonna be people who feel a certain way about it. just read, This story might save your life. Did anybody read that one yet? Super.
Jenna G Judith (21:42)
Not yet, no.
Susan (21:42)
Yeah.
Cait (21:45)
fucking fantastic book, obsessed, audiobook was insane, highly recommend. I came out of that, I'm gonna, no spoilers, but there's not a sex scene in it. But it is a like slow burn like relationship between two best friends that if there was a sex scene, it would have been so good, like so good.
Jenna G Judith (22:10)
So it's almost like the antithesis of a sex scene that is almost as powerful as what a sex scene would be.
Cait (22:19)
Exactly.
Susan (22:19)
Because
I said your own mind then. And like that is more powerful, isn't it? Like that is all, and like, I guess.
Cait (22:20)
Yeah, it was very scary.
I
just want to read one so bad from these characters, but it just didn't, it didn't happen.
Susan (22:28)
Yeah, like you just
desperately want these characters to come together and it's just not, but it is all there. And like, I think that is a sex scene in a way. Like it's not the scene you want, but it's the buildup and the, without the release, I suppose.
Cait (22:42)
Yes, and it, I mean, again, book. Like, it's not that I missed it, but at the end I was just like, man, if she had had a scene it would have been so good. ⁓ Still a great book, but yeah, and then there's gotta be, I think people like actively make the choice of whether to include them or not to include them all the time.
Jenna G Judith (22:44)
figuratively and literally.
Susan (22:45)
Yes!
Can I say things that annoy me in sex scenes?
Jenna G Judith (23:07)
Yes!
Cait (23:07)
Thank
Susan (23:09)
Okay, so I've been thinking about this. bad sex scenes. So, okay, this is back to Sally Rooney. And I know I do like her, but men are always moving inside of her characters. And I really hate that expression. He moved inside of me. I find it weird. I just find it weird. mean, technically, yeah, it might be happening, but I find it like even from a feminist perspective, quite strange. It makes the woman entirely passive. And also like, I don't.
Cait (23:24)
you
Jenna G Judith (23:36)
That's
why it bugs me. Thank you for articulating that.
Susan (23:39)
Yeah, it really bugs
me. And like she always uses it. It's in every single book. I'm like, please just stop moving inside of people. I really don't like it.
Jenna G Judith (23:45)
Damn it.
Cait (23:52)
There
are, like, I feel like definitely on Instagram and stuff, you see a lot of people who are like, please don't describe your folds.
Susan (24:00)
yeah, nobody wants to know about that. Like maybe they do, but like you, again, like you just, you have to be like an immensely talented writer, I think, to pull it off. And most, you know, most of us have to operate within our lanes and know what we can do and what feels natural to us. And I think sometimes like going overly graphic just for the sake of it is not right.
⁓ so I just like to use words that I probably can't say on this podcast. ⁓ but you know,
Cait (24:33)
Number one, could say it. Number two, I didn't know that you could pull those words in literature. When sometimes when I was reading some of these books, I'm just like, my God, we can write that? right, we can write whatever we want from it.
Jenna G Judith (24:33)
The way...
Susan (24:46)
I mean, to be fair, when I first read atonement, I didn't know what that word meant. With the C word, I was like, what is this? I had to call up my friend.
I'm 15 years old and he didn't really know what it meant either but he had a good guess.
Jenna G Judith (25:04)
So it wasn't even in the dawn of I have to Google it. It's a I need a first-hand experience of talking to someone about it.
Susan (25:16)
And now just use that word and I feel really empowered when I use it because I'm like, I do know what this means now.
Cait (25:22)
So you're not moving it just to throw it out there for people to feel a certain way about it. Okay, this isn't supposed to invoke a reaction from you. This is just how I want to describe, or this is just how I'm being moved to describe this.
Susan (25:38)
Yes, yeah, think like somewhat like plainly ⁓ is quite like what I like to do. okay, other bad sex scenes. I read one recently and somebody described the woman as having an orgasm as being like playing an accordion.
I just...
Jenna G Judith (25:53)
I do not want to be compared to any musical instrument of any kind.
Susan (25:58)
This is also written by a woman, which I was slightly baffled by, but...
Jenna G Judith (26:02)
It's better than a bagpipe, I guess? ⁓
Like, if you're gonna choose a musical instrument, it could be worse.
Cait (26:12)
And maybe not as her lived experience, and who am I to tell the fuss? Not how I personally would feel.
Susan (26:12)
It does.
But yeah, I think obviously the obvious one is like when men just write bad descriptions of women. I'm always like really disappointed when it's like a male author that like I really love and I just think like writes stunning like otherwise and they're like really? ⁓ no, baby. no. We had to set out.
Jenna G Judith (26:39)
There, you could, you had so
Cait (26:40)
Thank
Jenna G Judith (26:42)
many.
Susan (26:43)
for editing books like after the fact, like part of me wants to be like for your own good. Let's just take that out.
Jenna G Judith (26:49)
Yes! like, especially people that we always talk about, you have resources. You have people you can ask questions of. Go ask a woman. Go. Just, like, take the steps, put your toxic masculinity away for just a hot second, and go talk to a woman about how she would like to be described in a sex scene written by a man.
Cait (27:02)
You
Susan (27:02)
you
Jenna G Judith (27:18)
Is that so hard? No.
Cait (27:20)
Who's the man writing
it for?
Jenna G Judith (27:23)
Hmm, who's the man writing it for?
Susan (27:24)
This is...
Yeah, we sometimes as women write for other women, don't we?
Jenna G Judith (27:29)
Mm-hmm.
Cait (27:29)
Yeah,
we talked about that in our writing men episodes where we were like, I mean, we're writing it for the girls.
Susan (27:32)
Yeah.
Cait (27:37)
There are things that I've put in noticing being like, ooh, the girls are gonna like that. Okay, yes, that one, the girls are gonna like that.
Susan (27:46)
i
think that's important i think sometimes you have to just be like the girls are gonna like that and it's fine i think that's important like get the people up
Cait (27:50)
They're going to like that.
Jenna G Judith (27:55)
And then
maybe the boys will read it and maybe pick up a few tips.
Susan (27:59)
there's this thing about when women write sex and when they write about pleasure, they write about these things, then you just label it as smut and it's like, it's lesser than. And that's really, that's wrong. And I think it is, I think that's why it's so important as women to write about sex because it is political and it is.
us reclaiming a space that, one, we're supposed to always be quiet about, and we're not supposed to talk about, and we're certainly not supposed to write about, and we're certainly not supposed to have any kind of joy or pleasure in it or thoughts about it. We should just be lying there and taking it and letting it move inside of us. That's about it.
Jenna G Judith (28:28)
But yeah, opinions, heaven forbid.
playing us
like a bagpipe.
Cait (28:39)
It's so true though. I I just think about how much advertising and storytelling and everything that we've ever experienced that appeals to the male forever, forever. Even if it's a literal commercial on TV, it has to appeal to a male's sexual drive and whatever. And it's like, as soon as women come along and we're like...
And this is, feel, like very new thing. And we talk a little bit about it with Crystal in our The Bodice Rippers episode. But like, it's like this thing that like women should not also be appealed to in that same way.
Susan (29:10)
Hmm.
Like if it is for women, I still think we're living through this where if it is for women, it's deemed lesser. And like, yes, there are like thrillers or, you know, certain genres that probably men read more than women do. And then, yes, there are like types of ways that you write sex scenes in that way, because it is for a male audience. And maybe then you compare that to romance novels. But...
I don't know. don't think it's a fair comparison in ways because even in literary fiction, you just assume that even when a man can't write sex about a woman, that women are going to read that. And then there's because the men write in the universal versus I think even women at a very high level are still seen as writing for other women. ⁓ therefore, there's not this hard divide between writing romance and whatever for women because it's all just labeled as lesser and smart. ⁓
Jenna G Judith (29:55)
Okay
Mm-hmm.
Cait (30:12)
home inspection.
Susan (30:14)
Yeah, it's
all women's fiction. Like what is women's fiction? Like is there men's fiction? I think there is, it's just called fiction. So it's, I don't know, it's really...
Cait (30:21)
Just called World War II
history.
Susan (30:26)
It's really cute though, isn't it?
Cait (30:27)
Thank
Jenna G Judith (30:30)
Roman Empire.
Cait (30:31)
Cold.
Susan (30:36)
I don't know. It's just, and like, I do love, there are many, many, like most, not most, but lot of my favorite sex scenes have been written by men. Have they been written by gay men? Yes. Or, ⁓ you know, men who are bisexual? Yes. But, know, it's not to say men can't write it, but I think lots of men don't, they're not genre-fied or they're not.
pigeon-holed in the same way that women are when they write about these things, or they're not lambasted, ⁓ or it's not like, all it is is about sex, and that kind of way. as women are then held accountable for, or people, like one of my favorite writers is Edna O'Brien, ⁓ like a lot of my books are kind of based on what she wrote about Ireland in the 1960s in terms of women's rights, and they were famously banned because she included sex.
⁓ It was also famously banned because she may have included people from her own small town in Ireland, including a very well-to-do man that she'd had sex with. But they were banned by the Catholic Church and kind of her local community and her mother wouldn't speak to her for years and they were burned and all this kind of stuff. And I'm grateful, well, we are still living in that era in many, many ways, but, you know, it is kind of that thing of like, ooh, people would open up those books to try to find the sexy scenes and not treat it as real literature. And that also is...
know, the threat of that, which I don't think you would do with a man. Maybe some writers you do, I don't know, but not in the same way.
Jenna G Judith (32:07)
But you also have to look statistically, who's buying books right now? Who's reading fiction? Women. That... Yes!
Susan (32:12)
Women. And women write more fiction and women are the birth of
the novel. We have Jane Austen. Like the novel, think, is an inherently like it is, it's a woman's art form. And so it makes sense that there are so many novels by women, about women, for women. And yet why then are more men celebrated in this category? It's bizarre, isn't it? Well, it's not bizarre, it's patriarchy. I wish it was bizarre. ⁓
Jenna G Judith (32:37)
Yeah
We have
a word for it, patriarchy. Yes. So how about we just like disrupt it all. We say there's men's fiction and then there's fiction. That would solve all the problems.
Susan (32:42)
Yeah, there's a reason.
Cait (32:46)
I'm just thinking.
Yeah.
Susan (32:56)
And then there could be a men's fiction prize, you know, instead of his real description of women's fiction, which is fabulous and everything. But I just think every year like, well, why do we, do we still need this? And I guess maybe we still do sadly, but.
Jenna G Judith (32:58)
Yes.
It's like one would think at this point dollars would get the point across, like how much money women spend on this, but even then the buying power does not equal the loudest voice in the room.
Susan (33:21)
No,
because it's still just deemed like, ⁓ know, like women have no brains. They just have a like some money to spend. ⁓ Or like, you know, like the whole thing around heated rivalry or even weathering heights and like how people just were like, there's nothing to them. Like they're just like these like sex nonsense and, you know, fine. Lots of women are spending lots of money on this. doesn't actually mean anything. And that seems really wrong because
Cait (33:28)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (33:28)
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Susan (33:47)
Who's saying that? Why are we being told that? Why are we being told that our response to art about sex is lesser?
Jenna G Judith (33:57)
And why do women like heated rivalry? Because there's no misogyny in it.
Susan (34:02)
Nice! And it's just great! And it's
just really sweet, isn't it? Like, it is-
Cait (34:06)
Just the fucking story,
can we just like... Because too, women, think... And I don't mean to make like general assumptions or whatever, but I think like in the world making general assumptions, like women prefer an emotional connection to characters and people and places to then... That's why we fucking love a slow burn. All day. All day. Eat it up.
Because I want to feel that connection to the characters and the plot and the story and like that's what excites me about a sex scene. It's not like just this like visual part of it. I think that like in the general public we all think that like men are super visual and they just like see something and that's what excites them whereas like women need a lot more I don't want say it, stimulation. Like we need like more.
Jenna G Judith (34:44)
It's-
Cait (35:01)
to be able to connect and feel that, to get into it, sorry, whatever it is. But I think that's what I'm to do right now.
Jenna G Judith (35:07)
Like, we're not reading it just to read.
Yeah, we're not reading it just to find the dick. Like, we're reading it because we want the relationship build.
Cait (35:18)
We want the story and that's why this is such a huge money maker right now because it is exciting. It is exciting to read. Like I like it.
Susan (35:28)
And I think
it's fine to be excited by it as well. Like you don't have to just be like, ⁓ yeah, I read that. Like you can be excited about it. You should be aroused by it. You should feel something. it's, it's, that's what it's there for. I mean, it is, and like that all, all writing should make you feel like that. Like you should have a very visceral response to it. And if you don't, well then it's bad writing, isn't it? Like.
Jenna G Judith (35:38)
Thank God.
Susan (35:53)
regardless of whatever it is.
Like I remember probably the first response I ever had to actually reading a book and being like, ooh, that's sexy, was the sisterhood of the traveling pants.
Cait (36:03)
Was it the coach in the soccer camp?
Jenna G Judith (36:05)
Yes.
Susan (36:05)
No, it was the second book with the ⁓ the Greek. He comes over and they just go for this date and they like eat cookie dough in Washington DC on like Capitol Hill. then, my God, I have like read this passage so many times growing up. Like to me it was like the most exciting thing ever because again, it was like what you were saying like about how like,
Jenna G Judith (36:09)
⁓ yes.
Cait (36:09)
yes, it reads.
Jenna G Judith (36:19)
of how you remember everything about it.
Susan (36:29)
they don't actually end up doing anything. And like, that's actually even more exciting, I think, when you're that age. Or obviously like Judy Blume Forever was also great. And then I remember like, yeah, I do remember when I first read The Notebook, for instance. And I think, I think it's like page 100, because we genuinely like passed this book around because the sex scene was so great. And we were just like handed to each other in class and be like, page 100. And there's something like quite, I don't know, there's something really exciting about that, that you have that like,
It feels quite safe in a way, almost like being a girl and having these books to read about it. ⁓ And like it is contained. And yes, are they realistic? Maybe not. Maybe they are a fantasy, but like it's a safe way to learn about your own sexuality and how to then to write about it and how to feel about it and how to respond about it and how to speak to your friends about it. ⁓ That I don't know. Maybe men don't have that in the same way, but that's, yeah.
Jenna G Judith (37:06)
Yes!
Susan (37:26)
I don't know why I started talking about the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, except that it's excellent.
Jenna G Judith (37:29)
I don't know.
Bye.
Cait (37:31)
No,
I literally wanted to ask everyone what their sexual awakening book was.
Susan (37:37)
that is 100 % mine. 100 %
mine.
Jenna G Judith (37:40)
It's a tie between that one and I think it's called Angus Thongs and Full Frontal Snogging.
Susan (37:49)
⁓ perfect slogging, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jenna G Judith (37:51)
Yeah!
Yup, yup.
Cait (37:52)
What
is this book?
Susan (37:55)
I actually read the book, I had seen the film, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, huge!
Jenna G Judith (37:57)
Yeah, so there
was a whole series of books. It was by a British author about, it's definitely YA, but it's just about this awkward teenage girl that's learning about...
learning about like how to kiss boys. ⁓ What does it mean to like dress like sensually like like and she has this cat that's absurd and like fat and it's just it's hilarious and I remember reading that and be like wait you can talk about like kissing boys in books? Like there wasn't even like a sex scene I don't think not for like a really a couple books in there was. But also Gossip Girl was another
book series that I was just obsessed with. So like those three.
Susan (38:44)
and the Princess Diaries.
And my cabaret always, like, she was, like, really, really good about writing about sex and, kind of graduating you, like, upward of reading the Princess Diaries. And then, I guess, like, she did talk a lot about safe sex, but again, like, those books were for a teenage audience or, like, from, 12 to 16 or something. So was actually, they were educational in many, many ways. I learned, I learned a lot from those books that I certainly did not learn at public school.
Jenna G Judith (39:12)
You
Susan (39:14)
Thank you, my Cabot, for raising me and making me a safe adult. But like, yeah, I think,
Jenna G Judith (39:21)
Mm-hmm.
Susan (39:21)
But
those books were so, as I said, like they were just so informative. ⁓ And I still think about them. Like I think about like, I want to write a scene that makes a reader as excited as I felt when Lena messed around or whatever with what's his name when he came over from Greece with... Yes!
Jenna G Judith (39:39)
Costas? Costas. Yeah.
Cait (39:40)
Who's this
old
Jenna G Judith (39:41)
Wow! That came from the depths.
Cait (39:44)
You
Susan (39:46)
mean genuinely like it was fantastic.
Cait (39:50)
my god, for me it was
the soccer coach and that might say a lot about my preferences of story.
Susan (39:55)
thank you, Ann Brashares for educating me. And so I do think, yeah.
Cait (39:57)
Thank you so much.
Susan (40:02)
Like said earlier, we need all different types of sex represented and we need all different stages of it represented and those kind of difficult conversations, whatever, should be included somewhere. ⁓ At least for me. I feel so appreciative as a reader to have that and to really learn from it.
Jenna G Judith (40:26)
That was like that. You just summed up our entire one hour conversation and it was beautiful. And I want to like, like that will be the ending right there. Cause I'm like, that was gorgeous.
Cait (40:30)
Thank you.
Susan (40:36)
Okay.
Jenna G Judith (40:38)
Did we wanna do a mini wrap-up, Cait?
Cait (40:43)
I would love for Susan to just plug her books real quick.
Jenna G Judith (40:46)
Yes please! Yes talk about your books for a hot minute and tell us where we can get them and any new projects.
Susan (40:53)
Fair
yes, so the third book, my third book is coming out in September, September 10th. It is called What Other Years Have Done. And it is the final book in a trilogy. So the first one is The Essence of an Hour and that came out in 2021. And ⁓ it follows this character called Lily Kerrigan as she comes of age in the kind of just before the beginning of the Second World War in America.
Jenna G Judith (40:55)
on her website.
Susan (41:20)
into that war period and she questions things like losing her virginity, her loss of innocence and her loss of faith ⁓ and her kind of toxic relationship with her female best friend and also kind of falling in love with her male best friend at that time and how all these storylines kind of come together and how does she make sense of what happened over one kind of long hot summer. ⁓ And then the second book is called We Were Very Merry.
And that follows Lily into the 1950s and her first marriage, which is not a spoiler to say, breaks up and is quite ⁓ unhappy, but she's trying to retrace the steps to find out was that marriage always unhappy. it's kind of about this post-war period.
of how women find their identity when they still very much were beholden to their identity of their husband. And if you educate a woman, what opportunities did she have to kind of forge her own path in life at that period of time. And so then finally, I wrap up with this final book, which as I said, is out for September. And as I said, it's called What Other Years Have Done. And it is about Lily in the late 1960s with the burgeoning Women's Liberation Movement.
She's now in her mid-40s and she's reflecting back on kind of all these toxic relationships she's had with men and women over the years and how this all kind of culminates into, you know, women's lib and, you know, advocating for abortion rights for women at that time. Which, scarily enough, writing that in 2024, 2025 and being like, yeah, I'm writing about 1968, 1969 and...
Hmm, it's like pre-Roe V. Wade and now we're like post post-Roe V. Wade, ⁓ which is very, very frightening and kind of the options of women's birth control is again being very limited. yeah, it's wild. ⁓ And also I think kind of again that control of women's bodies, the kind of back to tradwifedom and all that kind of stuff, it's scarily more important than
I necessarily realized when I was writing it.
Jenna G Judith (43:34)
Yeah, that, ⁓ were probably questioning what decade you actually were in when you were writing it.
Cait (43:39)
Yes.
Susan (43:40)
Yes,
very much so. ⁓ Yeah, very, very much so. think sometimes you write about the past and you're like, that's the past. And it's like, no, it's really not.
Cait (43:50)
We will have those available on our website as well.
I'm obsessed with you. Like, you're here. I would clearly like know my love for Susan. But let us know how we can support you at all, like moving forward, like when your book comes out. like, please, like keep in touch. Message us anytime with just let us know how we can like promote you and what you're doing and all of the things.
Jenna G Judith (43:57)
Yeah
Susan (44:15)
That's really, really
kind. I that's why I love listening to this podcast, even from the first episode you guys did, because it was like, I don't know, I think being a writer now is very lonely and people get very much into their own bubbles. then, I don't know, nobody really talks about how they did stuff sometimes or promotes each other. Or there's this cliche, you walk into a room of other writers and you all kind of secretly hate each other because you're jealous of each other.
And like, I don't know, I like listened to that first episode, I like, this is such a breath of fresh air. And this is like genuinely women supporting other women and supporting a writing community. And that's just so fab. Like that it doesn't have to just, again, like back to this whole like thing of like, I'm gonna sound like a broken record about patriarchy, but I think like we're like in this realm of like where it's always competitive and it's always so putting other people down that that can.
doesn't have to exist and within like women writing they can be good women supporting other women. That's really exciting.
Cait (45:20)
We all win, yeah, absolutely. And that's totally how it feels. it's awesome. It's been the best.
