Mom Influencers, Motherhood & Midwest Family Chaos | Claire Swinarski
May 5, 2026
Featured Guests:
Claire Swinarski
Claire Swinarski is the author of multiple novels for adults and younger readers, including The Funeral Ladies of Ellery County and The Supper Club Saints. Known for her emotionally layered, Midwest-rooted stories filled with humor, family tension, and heart, Claire lives in Wisconsin with her family.
What happens when you combine Wisconsin supper clubs, mom influencers, postpartum anxiety, giant Catholic families, and the impossible pressure of modern motherhood? Apparently… one of the most emotionally honest books we’ve read in a long time.
This week, we’re joined by author Claire Swinarski to talk about her newest novel, The Supper Club Saints — a story about a young mother who flees a mom-influencer “mom-mune” and returns home to her complicated Wisconsin family, only to find their beloved supper club on the verge of being sold.
We talk about why mom influencer culture fascinates people, how motherhood changes the way women see themselves and each other, and why writing family dynamics well is one of the hardest things an author can do. Claire also shares the real-life inspiration behind the book, including Ruby Franke documentaries, Paris Hilton’s advocacy work, and growing up in a large Catholic family in Wisconsin.
Plus: publishing pressure, launch week anxiety, Goodreads culture, Midwest representation in fiction, trampoline debates, and why readers need to stop declaring books “dead” before release week is even over.
In This Episode
What a Wisconsin supper club actually is
The real inspiration behind The Supper Club Saints
Mom influencer culture and why people are drawn to it
Writing complicated but loving families
Postpartum anxiety and parenting pressure
Why every reader connects to a different sister
The emotional reality of motherhood versus perception
Publishing anxiety, launch weeks, and reader discovery
Why Midwest stories matter in fiction
Claire’s refreshing approach to publishing and creativityAnnouncements
Reading List
The Supper Club Saints — The Supper Club Saints
The Funeral Ladies of Ellery County — The Funeral Ladies of Ellery County
Saturday Night at the Lakeside Supper Club — Saturday Night at the Lakeside Supper Club
Llama Llama Red Pajama — Llama Llama Red Pajama
The Supper Club Saints
Claire Swinarski
The Supper Club Saints follows Cass, a young mother who returns to her small Wisconsin hometown after fleeing a mom-influencer commune known as a “mom-mune.” Hoping to regroup by working at her family’s beloved supper club, she instead discovers the restaurant may soon be sold — forcing her and her deeply complicated family to confront old wounds, parenting differences, generational expectations, and what motherhood actually looks like behind closed doors.
Blending sharp commentary on influencer culture with deeply emotional family dynamics, The Supper Club Saints explores postpartum anxiety, sisterhood, modern parenting pressure, and the tension between perfection and authenticity — all through the unmistakable lens of Midwest life and Wisconsin supper club culture.
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Cait (00:00)
I was just like so excited to get on here and talk to you.
Jenna G Judith (00:00)
I'm just like so excited.
Yes, my God.
Claire Swinarski (00:04)
No, I'm excited.
I was listening to a few of your, you know, episodes to be like, okay, what podcast am I going on? And I love it. I just listened to your AI one. It was great. I'm going to listen to more.
Jenna G Judith (00:11)
You
Yay! ⁓
Cait (00:15)
Yeah, a
little unhinged,
Claire Swinarski (00:18)
That's my
favorite style.
Jenna G Judith (00:19)
lol
Cait (00:21)
Yeah, we're so excited to talk to you. I just finished the book literally 10 minutes ago. That's...
Claire Swinarski (00:27)
awesome.
Jenna G Judith (00:28)
I still have like
two hours left according to my Kindle and I'm like dying to finish it.
Cait (00:35)
I've been doing that, yeah. Recently, Jenna, I've just been finishing right before. I try to time it so it's right before we record, because then I just get so jacked up. That's the best part about this whole thing, is you read these books and then you immediately get to talk to the author. It's the best. Especially since we've been working with HarperCollins, we just get the books are so great. it's just been such a great experience.
Jenna G Judith (00:50)
Yes!
Claire Swinarski (00:57)
⁓ well thank you.
Cait (01:00)
But yeah, this is crazy.
Jenna G Judith (01:00)
Yeah, and
when I saw your book, I literally like, on the list that HarperCollins sent us, I did like the command F and typed in Wisconsin specific, like I kid you not to try to find like local authors that I haven't heard about yet. And I saw yours and I'm like, you're shitting me. Like this is so good.
Claire Swinarski (01:11)
Wisconsin.
⁓
Thank you.
Jenna G Judith (01:25)
and I read the
synopsis and I'm like, this is just the epitome of a Wisconsin book and I am so excited for it. And of course, like, I devoured it. So...
Claire Swinarski (01:32)
Thank you.
Well, thank you so much. Yeah, I didn't realize you were in Wisconsin until this morning. I just followed you guys on Instagram and I saw that you're in Green Bay, so that's awesome. My books are all very Wisconsin-y. Very Wisconsin girl. Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (01:46)
Yeah,
so where are you from in Wisconsin originally, and like do you still live here?
Claire Swinarski (01:50)
I'm originally from Madison and I went to UW Madison, but now I live in Lisbon, which nobody knows where that is except we just had a tornado last week. And so we were famous for a week. Everyone was like, a tornado hit in Lisbon. And so our tiny, tiny town that has nothing but like a Kwik Trip and a stop sign was on the news. So we felt very fancy, but it's like, it's like 45 minutes northwest of Milwaukee.
Jenna G Judith (01:52)
Okay?
Claire Swinarski (02:16)
Where are you, Cait
Cait (02:17)
I live in Massachusetts. So, I did go to visit Jenna in Wisconsin like last month and it was my first time.
Claire Swinarski (02:19)
Okay, so quite different vibe.
Jenna G Judith (02:27)
It was during the like, giant snowstorm that like, shut down most of the state. Yeah, she literally like... It was bizarre and fun. No.
Claire Swinarski (02:30)
yeah, March, April is not a good time. March, April is not a good
Cait (02:33)
Yeah.
Claire Swinarski (02:37)
time to be here. You gotta come in like that's when we look our best.
Cait (02:40)
It was crazy. Yeah,
Jenna G Judith (02:39)
Yeah.
Cait (02:42)
I cannot believe that my plane even landed that day. You guys had like literally four feet. We went up to... Where was it? What is it called? We went to Dork Island. And it was like the snow banks where people had and you couldn't get... And I'm from New England and it was the craziest snowstorm I've ever seen in entire life.
Jenna G Judith (02:46)
Mm-hmm.
We went to Door County.
Claire Swinarski (02:54)
Nice.
Jenna G Judith (03:06)
you
Cait (03:07)
That was my walk. No, you did. That was my welcome to Wisconsin. But it's really cool to like read a book about it and get a little bit more of the culture. Like, are supper clubs like really like a thing in Wisconsin? Like it is not a thing here. So that was new for me.
Claire Swinarski (03:07)
I'm glad you survived.
Jenna G Judith (03:09)
Yes.
So, it's a thing.
Claire Swinarski (03:25)
Yes.
Yeah, they are a thing. And I've heard it. I've heard that phrase used by other people from other parts of the country as like a literal gathering where people will like cook together. And it always confused me. I'm like, why are you calling that a supper club? A supper club is a restaurant.
They're just like so cozy and homey and so Wisconsin. So, yeah, they're awesome. Next time you come visit, Jenna has to take you to one.
Jenna G Judith (03:47)
Yes.
I will, I will, I will take you.
Cait (03:52)
thought of like especially that opening line with the line about the grasshopper I was like I immediately got the vibe that the supper club is like a 1950s 60s type of phenomenon and it just like I think I feel like that set the stage for it for people like me who don't know what it might be like that that set it pretty well so I was in I had like almost like a dirty dancing like picture in my head of like them like all eating at the camp together
Claire Swinarski (04:22)
It's not it's not completely off. have you guys ever read Saturday Night at the Lakeside Supper Club by J. Ryan straddle? Or have you heard of it? ⁓
Jenna G Judith (04:29)
No.
Claire Swinarski (04:30)
you would love it. It's Minnesota vibes. So, but it's an amazing book about a supper club. And I heard him on an interview talking about how like having going to a supper club is kind of like being invited to someone's home because you show up and they immediately give you free food. They give you the relish tray, they give you the bread basket, they let you there as long as you want this the salad bar is unlimited.
and you are there for hours, like it's just supposed to have that like hospitable feel and not like a stuffy restaurant feel.
Jenna G Judith (04:58)
And I'm just like, that's just a normal Friday here. I know since you are from Wisconsin and you write like books that are in that, that like geography and like the culture of like Wisconsin and everything, what like, what has been your feeling thus far?
Claire Swinarski (04:59)
Good.
yeah.
Jenna G Judith (05:21)
like introducing people to Wisconsin almost. It's like you're almost like tour guide Barbie with your books.
Claire Swinarski (05:29)
think that's an honor because people don't understand that Wisconsin is great. I think we get a bad rep. We get roped in with like boring flat farmland states, but people don't realize first. I know or like Iowa like if people no offense to our lovely Iowa readers, but if you will see Iowa and then they see Wisconsin, it's like people don't realize. First of all, it's beautiful here. We have so many lakes, beautiful bluffs like it's just so so pretty, especially if you got up north like.
Jenna G Judith (05:39)
like Illinois.
Claire Swinarski (05:58)
When you see photos of some places in northern Wisconsin, it looks like the freaking Pacific Northwest. Like it is beautiful here. And second of all, just the culture here, I think is something that could really help the rest of the country in terms of just the sense of like neighborliness and knowing who you live around and helping each other out.
I lived in New Orleans for one year and I always heard like, Southern hospitality, Southern hospitality. I'm like, people in the Midwest are way nicer than people. so, I love just showing people like the good heart of Wisconsin. And yeah, my books are super, super Wisconsin-y, which I think some people, it might turn them off a little bit. But then when people in Wisconsin read my books, they tend to be so excited because there aren't a ton of books.
about the Midwest, right? There's like this whole Southern literature. There's all those books where like New York City is the character, you know, and there's all these books about like LA and California. And there's just like not a lot set here. So I think it's exciting for readers.
Jenna G Judith (06:48)
No.
Yes, 100 % especially because everyone says like write what you know, like you need to write what is like part of your soul and I just love that you like actually did that. Like you were... I want to know how much of yourself you inserted into this book because I'm like there's a cast of characters, I found myself in like a bunch of them, so not only like did you take the
actual place of where you are, but like the people part of it because that was that was a choice all of those characters and that family dynamic.
Claire Swinarski (07:38)
Yeah, it's funny because I have a big Catholic family and I've written two books about big Catholic families whenever my family hears that I have a new book coming they're like, ⁓ geez, and I give them the advanced copy and they're like flipping through like, which ones me which ones Jenna like they're like arguing over who is who. and it's, that's not how I write like my characters aren't replicas of people. It's not like I just write myself or my siblings into a book but
Cait (07:51)
you
Claire Swinarski (08:04)
They're certainly heavily inspired by moments in my life where they're pulled from different traits and quirks of people that I know, including myself. So like there's a lot of me in, I would say, Hillary, but I am not divorced. So it's like those practical details are not the same, but a lot of our kind of inner vibe is the same. ⁓
Jenna G Judith (08:26)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Swinarski (08:27)
our like exhaustion with balancing like motherhood and a creative life and our our frustration with other people's really strict rules. Those things are kind of the same, but I drastic people and ⁓ happily married. So the practicals do not always line up. But, you know, there's a scene in the book where like she goes to Target with her kids and she's feeling so overwhelmed and exhausted and that her kids are like yelling at her because she bought herself candy. And the target worker is like, hey, like
Cait (08:39)
Yeah.
Claire Swinarski (08:56)
your mom works really hard, like stop at the kids. That happened to me in a Target once and I've never forgotten. I was like the sweet worker was like defending my honor to my children. So a lot of those moments are very real, but the characters are not exactly one-to-one comparison.
Jenna G Judith (08:58)
you
you
Cait (09:14)
No, I think that people can really relate to Hillary. And I want to say that like, when I think I first started reading it, I was just like, okay, like Hillary is going to be in the middle and you're going to have these like extremes all around her. and that wasn't the case at all. Like what ended up happening, which I thought was so awesome. And your writing was just like somebody like Cass who you were really quick to judge. You can relate so much.
to her postpartum anxiety and the things that she was experiencing and her intrusive thoughts. I've never felt more seen as a mom reading Cass's story, but could not relate to her overall choices, but also was like, ⁓ I totally get why this happened. I've been there. I've had that thought. I've had this thought on a daily basis. And then you have Hillary, who's just trying to handle.
Jenna G Judith (09:59)
Yeah.
Cait (10:08)
all of it in a different way. my god. She's just trying to be nice. Yeah. And we all can't be like Kaz. We can't devote like, like I don't know I love her, I mean like they all learn but like I don't know. I just was in, I was in awe of just how truly real they all felt in ways that I was super surprised by. You know what I mean? Like.
Claire Swinarski (10:10)
Just trying to live. Hilary's trying to get through the day.
Jenna G Judith (10:13)
God!
Claire Swinarski (10:29)
Well, thank you. ⁓
I think one of the things that I was thinking over when I was writing the book was I knew that there was gonna be this like mom influencer element that like Cass had worked for a mom influencer and she lived in this mom unit and that she had all these interactions and she'd really looked up to these women. And I think it would have been really easy and maybe more fun to just write like.
Cait (10:32)
Super cool.
Claire Swinarski (10:55)
almost like a mocking satire, like these women are idiots. Let's all laugh at them. Like they suck. They're like ruining people's lives, like, and just make them into these characters. But I found it more interesting to think about like, why are women so attracted to this? Because they are. We might all be sitting around like laughing at Ballerina Farm, but Ballerina Farm is a multimillionaire with millions of followers. like there's something that she's giving that people are attracted to and like.
Why is that was a more interesting question to me than just like, haha, let's all like point at this idea and laugh at her together. I think that's a lot of our instinct, but there's a reason that people pursue mom influences as a career. And then there's a reason that they have followers. And so I wanted to kind of
explore that, but then juxtapose it with something like a supper club, which you could just could not get more different in culture. Like there's no supper club influencers, you know what mean? Like no one's doing a flat lay at the supper club. It is not aesthetic. So like taking those two things and seeing how they played together was really fun.
Jenna G Judith (11:57)
love that. It is not aesthetic. It's like the antithesis of aesthetic.
Claire Swinarski (11:59)
Yeah.
It's like
darkly lit wood panels, carpet. It's yeah, no ballerina farms in there. Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (12:09)
Yep. my god. ⁓
that's so funny. But yeah, because I read the excerpt and I'm like, I see where this is going. But then like when you actually like sat and read it, I didn't expect to connect with almost like every single character in some way. Like a lot of times when you have a cast of characters or a family.
you kind of, at least I do when I'm reading, is like I pick one and like that's me and then like that's how I insert myself into the story that I'm reading but this one I'm like I get you. I also get you. Wait, how the hell do I get you too?
Claire Swinarski (12:52)
Like another really real part of the book, like a direct scene was my sis, one of my sisters and I are always fighting about trampolines. Like I'm like, let the kids roam! Like, and my kids have all had multiple broken bones and she's a nurse, she's very safety first and like her kids are not allowed on a trampoline. And we have had so many arguments about this and it's like, how do you have these conversations?
Cait (13:03)
you
Claire Swinarski (13:14)
where you don't hurt each other's feelings because clearly like I think you're wrong and she thinks I'm wrong. Like, so how do you get through that and not get offended that someone else like just thinks you are wrong and you are making a wrong choice? But we want to remain in relationships. So like, how do we navigate Like we've got to, we've got to resolve this somehow. That's tricky.
Cait (13:33)
Literally, the trampoline was so
relatable. That was so I love too about Remy and the mom character is just this commentary on motherhood as a whole and how like Remy.
From her perspective, she absolutely loves her kids and is a great mom and is very present for her kids and does all the right things. And her actions show it too. And she is there and stuff. But if you ask any one of her kids, they'll be like, yeah, she wasn't the best. She wasn't present enough or she worked a lot. all of sudden, the conflicting, whereas Remy has all the right intentions and truly has deep love for her children. And they would say the exact opposite was just so like,
Claire Swinarski (14:03)
You
Cait (14:18)
⁓ yeah, like I've definitely given my mom shit and don't ever consider her experience as a woman or mother.
Jenna G Judith (14:22)
Yes!
Claire Swinarski (14:26)
Yeah, that is something I wanted to play with in the book too is like, just how often we are generation, we kind of look at our mom and it's like, that's our mom, that's her, that's her entire identity. And that should be her sole purpose in life. Like, what do mean you're not answering my phone call? Like, I have something to tell you, why are you not picking up the phone? But it's like, they have a whole life. And also, they have their own life experiences that contributed to how they parented. And so
Jenna G Judith (14:40)
Yes!
Claire Swinarski (14:50)
you her kids might be like, well, you were working all the time. And she might be like, yeah, you're welcome for the roof and the running water. Like, I was out here trying to make sure you survived. And like, she didn't want to, you know, they might've been like, well, you didn't even know where we were. You gave us so much freedom. But then when you read Remy's story and you see how she was given no freedom, no autonomy, like she believed she was giving them a gift. And it's like, who's right, who's wrong? We don't really know. It's not so cookie cutter.
Jenna G Judith (15:17)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Swinarski (15:18)
I saw a review that actually I've seen multiple that keep referring to the book as like a dysfunctional family. And I'm like, I think they're quite functional. Like they have a lot of conflict, but I'm like, they're hanging out together. They're running a business together. Like I'm like, I don't think they're not functioning. I just think this is how family life is. If you want to be in a family, you're going to have these moments that you've got to work through. Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (15:27)
Yep.
Yes. Conflicts?
Cait (15:41)
Yeah, it's not fucking August Osage
County over here. it's like... I did too, but like I just felt like everybody really loved each other and had like really good intentions. Yeah, that's what I would review that as.
Claire Swinarski (15:47)
I love that movie for the record.
That is dysfunction.
Jenna G Judith (15:56)
That's so accurate. Like,
when we get together in my family, it's, we have like two and a half solid days where like no one's bickering. No one's fighting. Maybe like a couple feathers are ruffled, but it's just like the, yeah we're in this together, we really love you, so happy to see you. Because all my, all my siblings live in Denver. So when we get together, it's like, it's like a really exciting thing. But then after two and a half days...
Claire Swinarski (16:17)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Jenna G Judith (16:23)
then people start to get a little persnickety. like, and I'm just imagining, I'm like, what if we lived closer to one another? We would be like at each other's throats constantly.
Claire Swinarski (16:26)
Yeah.
Yeah, I there's something to be said. live, my siblings all live in Madison. So I would say we have like a great, a great balance. We see each other often, but not every day. But like, yeah, in the Supper Club Saints I mean, they're seeing each other almost every day. Like it's, just constant togetherness. mean, Cass is staying with Remy, which we read in the book. She's like, uh-uh, this is not going to work long term. But yeah, it doesn't mean there's not like a lot of love there. It's just, it's just the nature of being human.
Jenna G Judith (16:43)
Yes.
No.
So when you had this idea, and because you have written like books prior to this one, were you with your agent and like you pitched the idea to them or was it you just had to get this story out and then you showed it to them? Because it feels like very personable.
Claire Swinarski (17:21)
No.
You know, it was not like that. I was talking to... ⁓ So this is my second adult novel. I've written quite a few books for kids and then I started doing more adult. I did my first adult novel. It's called The Funeral Ladies of Ellery County and it's also about a big Catholic Wisconsin family. And I was talking to my editor about what my next book should be and I said something very weird on the phone, which is, so I really like...
pulse. She was like, say more. I just started telling her about like these Netflix documentaries I had watched. And then she shared that she had just watched all the Ruby Frankie body cam footage. ⁓ If people are familiar with Ruby Frankie, she's like a mom influencer.
Jenna G Judith (17:53)
you
Yes!
Claire Swinarski (18:08)
who is in prison for abusing her children. And she was a huge inspiration for the story. And so my editor and I were just going on this rabbit hole talking about Ruby Franke body cam footage and cults. And she was like, I think there's something in here that is a book you could write, which is like a mom influencer cult. And I was like, that is such a cool idea. Let me see what I can come up with. And I love, like we've been saying, I love.
writing my stories very like rooted in the Midwest and so I knew I wanted this family to run a business and I was like kind of thought maybe like a frozen custard shop but it felt a little Hallmarky and so I went supper club and so that's kind of the book came together and I didn't know how much it was gonna even have to do with motherhood at the start. I thought it was gonna be more focused on like the drama cult aspect but then when I started writing it I thought what would be
like the cause of a lot of these conflicts. And I think it is that idea of like, I'm raising my kids this way, you're raising your kids this way. We really love each other. We want to be around each other. And this is sticky. This is hard. And like how we grew up is affecting the choices we're making now, ⁓ which is something I believe so much that like so much of our childhood story impacts us as adults. And so.
Jenna G Judith (19:18)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Swinarski (19:24)
Yeah, and then I had also been listening to this podcast with Paris Hilton about her experience when she was a teenager. Yeah, so if people don't know when Paris Hilton was a teenager, her parents paid these men to like kidnap her and take her to a wilderness survival camp and it is so traumatic. Like she was abused there and assaulted and...
Jenna G Judith (19:29)
Yes!
my god.
Claire Swinarski (19:46)
This podcast was so dark, but I had the idea to maybe incorporate some of that into Remy's story because happily and luckily, a lot of those camps are kind of dying out, but they were really, really big in the 80s and 90s. So that lined up with Remy. so, yeah, that's kind how it all came together.
Jenna G Judith (19:58)
Yes.
That's literally exactly what I thought of, was like Paris Hilton's
Cait (20:04)
Yeah,
Claire Swinarski (20:06)
Yeah. Thirsty.
Cait (20:06)
I thought of the parasol pin thing too for sure.
Claire Swinarski (20:08)
There's a mention to it to right near the end of the book, Remy says something about an heiress fighting against them. So I to give Paris her due for inspiring me and she's doing great advocacy work.
Cait (20:13)
Yeah.
Nice. Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (20:19)
god she's incredible! I
like I never thought I would say it but like yay Paris like you're taking down the patriarchy
Claire Swinarski (20:28)
Yeah, she has enough money she could just ghost in an Ibiza for the rest of her life. So like good for you for doing something worthwhile.
Cait (20:33)
Yeah
Cait (20:36)
I'm so curious. I would love to hear.
Just like a lot of our listeners are either like debut, they're writing, they're self-publishing, kind of in the early phases. If we could kind of dive into kind of your journey into publishing or even like what this week looks and feels like for you. How is it feeling right now? Like where are you at?
Jenna G Judith (20:54)
Yeah, what are you doing this week?
Claire Swinarski (20:57)
Thank
you.
⁓ it's a lot. So I'm doing a lot of this. I'm doing a lot of podcasts and a lot of like radio stuff, which is great. And I'm having a book launch party tomorrow night, which is really exciting at a bookstore in downtown Milwaukee and my friend Alicia Gilmore.
Jenna G Judith (21:15)
Which one?
Claire Swinarski (21:17)
Honestly, it's just a lot of this kind of stuff, like interviews, and I Tess set me up with a couple websites to write pieces for. So I've got an essay coming out for Lit Hub and something coming out for She Writes and just kind of anything to get eyes on the book. I'm not a super anxious publishing person. I don't get super stressed out about, my gosh, how do I get all these eyes on it? I think because I have been doing it a while, honestly. I know in my head that books find their readers.
Jenna G Judith (21:43)
Yeah.
Claire Swinarski (21:46)
And to me, the best way to do that is honestly word of mouth. And so I think a lot of people put a lot on launch day and launch week. But to me, it's like once it gets read by people, they tell other people, tell other people. And it's like these things get in steam over months. And that's always been my experience. I'm not some like hot out of the gate number one New York Times bestseller, but I have a great like consistent sales record because I think it's like a slow and steady wins the race in my opinion.
Cait (22:14)
That's super good advice. Yeah, because it's people's kind of, they think that there has to be so much done in this kind of lead up situation and they're getting hundreds of arc readers and they're like putting all their money into like ads and marketing and it's like, I think there is, it sounds like there's room for all of that, but it's more like you just need to let it happen as well.
Claire Swinarski (22:14)
So, not that.
Jenna G Judith (22:16)
Yes!
Claire Swinarski (22:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think just like taking a beat and not getting so stressed out. I see a lot of writers just really not enjoying the creativity anymore because they're just so stressed about about like that first week. And I'm like, if you just take a breath and remember like, why you write and just I don't know, I can get kind of woo, but I'm just a believer in like, what's meant for you will find you and like, it will go the way it's gonna go.
Jenna G Judith (23:06)
you
Claire Swinarski (23:08)
And authors can, it's not, I'm also not one of those people who's like, authors can't do anything to move the needle. I don't think that's true either, but I think it's somewhere in the middle where like, do what you enjoy doing. Like I enjoy podcasts, I enjoy my own sub stack, I enjoy events. And so those are kind of the things I focus on. I'm not gonna spend a ton of money on like TikTok ads, because I don't even know how. I'm not anti that. just, I'm not learning. I'm too old to learn the new, the new. So.
I'm like, I'm not gonna do that. But like, find what you like and do it and just know that if you if you put time and energy into your craft and you made something good, people are not going to shut up about it because readers love to talk about what they're reading. yeah, I know for real.
Jenna G Judith (23:36)
you
my god, like that's all they want to do! ⁓ god.
Well that's kind of like what I've noticed with your approach, Cait, like especially, is you know you're doing the things that you enjoy and you're not... I don't know, like you just have like this demeanor of like, yeah, it's gonna happen. And it's not like strangling it at all.
Claire Swinarski (24:17)
Yeah.
Cait (24:17)
Yeah, think, but I feel the 28th ⁓ very soon and I've been.
Claire Swinarski (24:19)
When does your book come out, Cait? Isn't it? Okay, so very soon.
Cait (24:26)
Feeling the like I'm so focused on the podcast and like growing that and like we've had a lot of growth in our first few months that it kind of took up a lot more time and energy than I I thought like it was going to So it kind of became the main thing whereas I thought the book would be the main thing and it just isn't But it's also been this really nice kind of That it's kept me from like kind of losing my mind about my gosh. Do I have enough advanced readers like
I didn't have any, like I just didn't put it on net get, I didn't do any of that. ⁓ So it just, feels good to hear, whereas like all, like my friends that have books coming out this month, like their whole Instagram grid is just the cover of their books and like all of these like cool posts about their books and like.
Claire Swinarski (24:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cait (25:12)
Mine is not at all. There's a few and stuff, but I think too with the podcast has also built its own platform in a way where it's been. it's still people. I've had a few book club reach out and been like, we listened to the podcast, can we get your book? And I'm like, I'm not doing any type of promotion of the book itself. I'm just talking on the podcast.
Claire Swinarski (25:14)
Yeah.
Totally.
Jenna G Judith (25:36)
You're like, it's just my face. It's not my book, it's my face.
Claire Swinarski (25:36)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Cait (25:40)
hearing you say that just makes me feel like, okay, and like, it's, the book's gonna be in the world, right? Like, it's gonna be there and you're gonna have a product to sell, so.
Claire Swinarski (25:46)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (25:51)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Swinarski (25:51)
And that
might be part of this might be me coming from Kiddlet because most of my books are middle grade books and that whole industry just moves a lot slower. They're not so obsessed with those first few months sales. They're really looking at more of like a first school year because it takes a while to get books into schools and teachers to read them and teachers because there's that whole other gatekeeping system. And so things are just a lot slower and steadier.
Palmer, feel, versus an adult. think there's all this pressure to be like, I'm the USA Today bestseller. Again, I'm not a bestseller, but I make plenty of money from my books. Plenty of people read them. So I don't know. To me, it's like, well, people are buying them. I don't need a meaningless accolade. I mean, it's fun to get. I'm not going to say why it's fun to get that
Jenna G Judith (26:37)
I'm
Cait (26:37)
No more.
Claire Swinarski (26:38)
One of my books got nominated for an Edgar and I immediately put Edgar Award nominated on like everything I own. like, but I'm not like sitting, I'm not gonna let the stress of that ruin something as fun as a book launch. You know how many people want to write a book and have a book launch party? Like I'm not gonna sit and mope about not being on a bestseller list. Like I'm gonna enjoy it.
Cait (26:43)
Yeah.
you
Jenna G Judith (26:59)
Yes! ⁓
that's so good to hear of just... You did the damn thing! Like, how cool is that?
Claire Swinarski (27:06)
Yeah, yeah,
Cait (27:07)
Yeah.
Claire Swinarski (27:08)
I agree. I wish, just, yeah, I just wish more authors like celebrated themselves and weren't, you know, like declaring their books dead before they've even come out because they don't have enough Goodreads ads. Like, who cares about Goodreads? Like, that's not even, I don't know.
Cait (27:24)
That's so refreshing.
Claire Swinarski (27:24)
My publicist
Jenna G Judith (27:24)
you
Claire Swinarski (27:25)
is probably somewhere being like, Claire, stop, like tell people to add the book on cutlery. I'm like, I don't care.
Cait (27:27)
I'm sorry.
Jenna G Judith (27:27)
Ha ha ha!
We will review it on Goodreads,
Cait (27:34)
And
Jenna G Judith (27:34)
we promise.
Cait (27:34)
there you go, you're absolutely getting good reads. That is so funny. But it's so nice. That's just like it makes it more like, okay, this should be like a happy time. This should be a time to celebrate and yeah, that's so nice.
Jenna G Judith (27:52)
Like, Cait, your whole entire, like, the pressure of the world has just, like, fluffed off you now. You're like, okay, I'm be fine.
Cait (27:57)
You
Claire Swinarski (27:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cait (28:00)
No,
there's just like, I think it's just the kind of comparing yourself to what other people are doing and like what their platform looks like or how many followers is that like, and we all do it but like, just to kind of make it your own journey it sounds like and celebrate what you did and let allow yourself that time. I'm sure before you start this one.
Claire Swinarski (28:06)
Yeah, for sure.
For sure. That...
Yeah, I mean, that book, Yesteryear, is everywhere right now about like a trad wife.
Cait (28:26)
Mm-hmm.
Claire Swinarski (28:27)
and her name is even, I think her name is Claire, her middle name is Claire, and it just made me laugh that it's like, oh, of course, the Tradwife novel by a Claire that's like on every list in every book tour, but it's like, I can either sit in my feelings and be all grumpy about it or I can like laugh and also think to myself like, wow, there's a lot of people who want to read a book about Tradwives. That's pretty good for good news for me coming out tomorrow. So I think it's just like an attitude shift.
Cait (28:53)
For sure, I think that happens to everybody.
Jenna G Judith (28:53)
And isn't it
Claire Swinarski (28:56)
Yeah, totally.
Jenna G Judith (28:57)
kind of like ironic too that like your book has like so much to do with like social media and like what you actually like put out there and how it's really not the reality at all. And it feels almost like this is like a direct reflection of that like kind of arc of just being more genuine versus putting so much pressure to be perfect on the exterior like facade because
Claire Swinarski (29:07)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (29:23)
hot as moms. It's just like it's freaking constant and it's like why would you like if you have the pressure of everyone else putting it on you why do you have to put even more on yourself? So it's like you're just you're choosing you and you're choosing joy and I love it so much.
Claire Swinarski (29:33)
Yeah.
Yeah, well good.
Cait (29:40)
Yeah. You know what that
was really? I saw that so much in the freaking Mama Llama letters. Holy shit, like where did those come out of? those were so good. Those were so
Jenna G Judith (29:53)
Yes! Was that like the parenting advice you always wish you would have gotten?
Claire Swinarski (29:58)
Honestly,
partly, I was thinking again about why are women turning to advice columns? why do we want to know what a stranger on the internet thinks? And I think so much of it is just anxiety. And you just want someone to tell you like, honestly, I feel like I'm mama-lammaing right now. Like you kind of just want somebody to be like, it's gonna be fine. Like, it's all gonna be good. If your kid reads nothing but Captain Underpants for a year,
That's okay. They'll be fine. Like, I think we're just like looking for that wisdom. And then at the same time, there are things where we don't want to just be like, that's fine. And so you kind of see that when the person, someone writes into Mama Llama about like, is it okay if I just give my kid an iPad for hours in the car? And it's like, okay, what are you really asking? I think what you're asking is maybe something like a little deeper than something about screen time. I think where you're at, what everyone is really asking is like, am I a good mom?
Am I doing a good job? Do you think I'm doing a good job? Like, I think that's really what everyone's asking. And so I kind of wanted to just create a space where someone who objectively did a horrible job, Cass, like Cass did not do a good job. She made very bad decisions is then put in this place of having to like tell other people like, you know, my whole career up to this point has been basically shaming everyone and telling them they did a bad job. But now
I'm gonna speak more from my heart and I'm gonna really try to connect through writing and make that transition. And Mama Llama in the book, they come up with that name because they just love the Llama Llama Red Pajama books and like so do I. So that is a little nod to the late great Anna Dudney.
Cait (31:38)
Those are so good. And she uses, she also uses the advice of the women around her to write them. And it's like, it's so good. It's so good. So good. I think that readers are like really gonna identify with that. It's, I'm sure they already are, but like, yeah, it's really, really cool.
Claire Swinarski (31:50)
Thank you. Thank you.
I hope so.
Jenna G Judith (31:59)
Mm-hmm. I loved it.
Cait (32:01)
Yeah, just,
so usually at 40 minutes around this time, I like just kind of check in and stop and we want to cover things that we didn't get to chat about because our episodes are usually about a half an hour or so. ⁓ So if there's anything that you wanted to like throw in there and then we can kind of go to like, okay, pitch the book and then when you sign off, we'll do your intro and stuff.
Claire Swinarski (32:15)
Mm-hmm.
Cait (32:25)
But yeah, was there anything else, Jenna, both you guys? ⁓
Claire Swinarski (32:30)
I'm happy
to answer anything else, but yeah, nothing pops into my head.
Jenna G Judith (32:34)
Ooh! Are you working on anything else or have something else in mind for the future?
Claire Swinarski (32:40)
Yes, I, Supper Club Saints is my focus for adults, but I do have a middle grade mystery coming out in January of next year. I'm really excited about it. It's called Mr. Cooper Didn't Do It, and it's about the most popular teacher in school. The field trip money goes missing and someone finds the field trip money in his desk and his class knows he didn't do it and they want to band together and prove his innocence and so
Jenna G Judith (32:49)
Wow!
Claire Swinarski (33:08)
It's an epistolary book told through texts and late notes and all kinds of multimedia things. Yeah, that'll be out in January and I'm really excited about that one. Yeah. Thank you.
Jenna G Judith (33:20)
That sounds incredible.
Love that.
Cait (33:25)
What, Josh Taylor would love that.
Jenna G Judith (33:27)
my god, Jess Taylor would!
Cait (33:29)
her,
she owns like a YA bookshop or like and she's yeah she's super cool and she does like book of the month with like students and like yeah she is anyway I'm sure she'll listen to this. Yeah she's like the it girl right now of like YA stuff she's cool. ⁓
Jenna G Judith (33:42)
Yes.
Claire Swinarski (33:48)
Very cool.
Jenna G Judith (33:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, middle grade in YA. She's all about it, and I feel like she has quite the pulse on what is gonna do well.
Cait (33:56)
Yeah, killer
salesman, just awesome. Anyway, yeah. I'll put it. And then we'll have you pitch. Cyber Club will kind of like wrap up with that. And then like I said, when you sign off, we'll do your intro and all of that. But yeah, I'm like really happy with this episode. Like we could talk for another hour and a half and it would be super fun.
Jenna G Judith (33:59)
Yeah.
Claire Swinarski (34:16)
thank you. I know. I
Jenna G Judith (34:18)
I know, we always
have to put a cap on it.
Claire Swinarski (34:20)
know I want to interview you. I'm like, I want to hear about how the podcast got started. Yeah.
Cait (34:24)
Yeah,
Claire Swinarski (34:28)
⁓
Cait (34:28)
but we'll put you in the group chat. I know, do you belong to any writing groups or anything, or writing associations?
Claire Swinarski (34:31)
Sounds good.
Jenna G Judith (34:32)
Yes.
Claire Swinarski (34:37)
You know what, don't. think it's just because I'm out here in my tiny town with my million children and I just don't always have time for stuff. yeah.
Cait (34:47)
No, so I'm just like, how have we not all
met before? Like, how have we not run into each other through like... Yeah, through like...
Jenna G Judith (34:51)
Right!
Claire Swinarski (34:52)
Yeah, well one of these days.
Jenna G Judith (34:56)
Yes,
especially next time Cait comes to Wisconsin, because we, now that, you know, we are officially legally bound to one another and have a passion for the book thing, ⁓ I'll go to Boston, Cait will come out here, and it'll just be like a regular thing. But anyways, next time you come out, Cait, we should go to a supper club and we'll go near, because we have to go visit Sarah and I, so then we'll go visit Claire.
Claire Swinarski (35:10)
Nice.
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (35:24)
And then we'll just like have a little like tour day Wisconsin authors.
Claire Swinarski (35:24)
Perfect.
Suffer
club tour. Yeah, I love it. Love it.
Cait (35:29)
I love it. Yeah, a recoverable, super
clubbing up. So yeah, definitely. But put your book and we'll put it in there.
Jenna G Judith (35:33)
Yeah.
Yes!
Claire Swinarski (35:37)
Sure. Yeah, so the Supper Club Saints is about a girl named Cass. She's a young mom and she has been away from her small Wisconsin town for a couple of years living in a mom-une with a group of mom influencers. And when things go south there pretty quickly, she runs away and returns home thinking that she's going to be able to work at her family's supper club only to find out that it's being sold.
So she quickly gets a job as a parenting advice columnist and with the help of her sisters and her own mother ends up writing advice to moms who write in and want to know about modern parenting and small town life. And they spend a lot of time with their supper club and remembering all the good times they had there and kind of diving into how what happened to us as children influences our parenting today.
And yeah, it's a big complicated Wisconsin family and I hope you love it.
Cait (36:33)
that's so good. You're gonna love that. You guys are gonna love that.
Jenna G Judith (36:33)
Yay!
Yes.
It's like the perfect, like, early summer read, I think. It's... It fits.
Claire Swinarski (36:37)
⁓
Well, thank you.
Cait (36:43)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you, Claire.
We will keep you any longer. You're busy. But seriously, send us, too, if you want to email us your address. can send you some goodies. ⁓
Jenna G Judith (36:47)
Thank you!
Claire Swinarski (36:48)
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Jenna G Judith (36:54)
Headshot. Yes, yes,
Claire Swinarski (36:58)
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (36:58)
your address
and your headshot, please.
Cait (37:00)
Yeah. That
Claire Swinarski (37:01)
Yes, will do. Sounds good.
Cait (37:01)
would be awesome.
Jenna G Judith (37:03)
and then before you go, Claire, how do you pronounce your last name?
Claire Swinarski (37:06)
Swinarski. It's actually just how it's spelled. I know it looks scary, but it's just phoenic. Yeah. It looks scary. Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (37:08)
Swinarski, okay.
Cait (37:11)
you
Jenna G Judith (37:12)
It's the eyes. I want to make sure I put the eyes in the cracks.
Cait (37:16)
yeah, we'll tease. So this will come out, next, not tomorrow, but next Tuesday. ⁓ and we'll tag you in the posts and put some teasers out and stuff and it'll be super fun and just keep in touch. Like, let us know how else we can support you and like what we can post and anything that comes up. Like, please. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. ⁓
Jenna G Judith (37:17)
But it.
Mm-hmm.
Claire Swinarski (37:29)
We'll see.
Jenna G Judith (37:29)
Yes!
Claire Swinarski (37:34)
Awesome. Thank you guys so much. This is fun. See ya. Bye.
Jenna G Judith (37:36)
Thank you, Claire.
Thank you. Lovely. Also, how's it feel first episode in the new house?
Cait (37:48)
I'm just like, our wifi is like pretty strong in the house, but I was just kind of like worried with freezing and stuff, but I mean like it should be fine. I'm not really like...
Jenna G Judith (37:57)
Mm-hmm.
No,
it's probably just like a rendering over the web thing.
Cait (38:05)
Okay, but yeah, it's good. I mean, I'll have my office eventually and like, John's literally gonna like, John's gonna turn my office into like a studio also like putting on the walls and he's like, putting like an interface, I'm gonna get a new computer, he's gonna put like a microphone interface thing so it's not going directly into my computer and like, it's gonna be really cool.
Eventually, hopefully in the next, after probably it'll be like a month when the, over the next month or so.
Jenna G Judith (38:35)
That's... yeah, you're gonna be spoiled.
Cait (38:38)
Yeah, I was like, and even if it's like the next season where I have like a cool set up for, but anyway, it was good. It's good. It's good. I'm just, we're still doing it.
Jenna G Judith (38:43)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah, still in box land.
Cait (38:52)
It makes
a nice background.
Jenna G Judith (38:56)
It does! I do enjoy wallpaper. god.
Cait (39:00)
We are, the pool's ready. We're gonna go swimming today, because it's like 70.
Jenna G Judith (39:03)
Whaaaat?
Cait (39:05)
Yeah,
and it's heated and he said it was pretty good.
Jenna G Judith (39:08)
Goodness you girl you're bougie
Cait (39:11)
Retrieval shit.
Jenna G Judith (39:13)
It's, yeah, you leveled up.
Cait (39:16)
When I shared my friends the Sunsetter thing on the porch, I was like, I'm still the same person, guys.
I know I was one hundred dollars.
Jenna G Judith (39:23)
What are you, friggin' 60?
Cait (39:25)
Exactly.
Jenna G Judith (39:26)
Man.
Cait (39:27)
Okay, I can do this intro if you want.
Jenna G Judith (39:30)
Okay. And then I don't have any announcements, so we're good.
Cait (39:34)
Ugh, John is at the... Oh, sorry, he's texting me. John's at the other house and he's supposed to be using the ride mower to mow the lawn, but it's not working.
you
Jenna G Judith (39:46)
Yup,
I get it. Totally get it.
Cait (39:50)
Okay.
Wienerski
Jenna G Judith (39:53)
Swinorski.
Cait (39:54)
How do I start it?
Jenna G Judith (39:55)
I'm thinking like the social media mom.
judgey-ness, maybe.
Cait (40:00)
Yeah.
like ⁓
I'm just not like, I'm not big into mom talk. I've never done mom talk, but people love mom talk, but I don't really know.
Jenna G Judith (40:07)
I know, I've never done it, really been into that either.
Cait (40:10)
Okay, let's just start there. Yeah, I'm gonna ask you already. ⁓ Have you ever gotten into mom talk?
Jenna G Judith (40:12)
Yeah!
Okay.
No, not at all. I'm like terrified to go down that dark rabbit hole of doom.
Cait (40:26)
Same, but people love it. Like, absolutely love it.
Jenna G Judith (40:28)
Yes!
They're obsessed!
Cait (40:31)
Yeah, I did go through a mom phase of like where I thought I should like hand make the things that the kids were eating a lot where I was like, ⁓ like, like, yeah, like the gold, like goldfish. I was like, I
Jenna G Judith (40:45)
You
made homemade goldfish?
Cait (40:47)
not once, but in my head I'm
proud of it because I was like, I was like, all right, they're eating a lot of goldfish. Like there's probably maybe like a lot of stuff in here. Like should I just like make these myself and make them healthier? And then I was like, but that's going to take me hours and this box is $5 at Costco. So like maybe I'll just buy the box.
Jenna G Judith (41:12)
Good cop.
Cait (41:12)
I
moms we do go through like these phases of just like, wait, am I doing this right? Am I doing this? Or like, should I be not using this on screen or not using? Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (41:22)
and that's why I don't do book talk because I don't want to question everything that I'm already questioning in my own head.
Cait (41:28)
Not tough.
You said bookmark, that's up.
Jenna G Judith (41:29)
Yeah. shit.
And that's why I don't do the mom talk crap because I already have enough anxiety. I don't want to have someone else's on me, too.
Cait (41:39)
No, yeah, like it would make me feel super inferior. It would make me feel super inferior or more inferior already as a mom, probably rather than like it's like there's too much advice. Well, getting too much advice like stresses me out. But I will tell you in this book, Except for Club Saints. Wow, I have never felt more seen as a mom, as somebody with anxiety.
never related more to these characters who are like modern women, modern moms, and like all the things that we go through today and Claire Swinarski... okay let me see and Claire... and Claire Swinarski...
Jenna G Judith (42:16)
Wienerski.
Cait (42:19)
I don't know how she does it, but this book was so good, you guys, especially if you're a mom, especially if you're trying to navigate family relationships and dynamics with your mom, even if you are not a mom, like, you will love this book. It's like, if you love mom talk, if you love secret lives of Mormons, like, this is right up your alley, like.
Jenna G Judith (42:41)
And even if you don't and you want to live vicariously through someone else for a moment, this is your chance. Because who doesn't love a good old snarky sister relationship like Battle of the Moms but also just being so... I don't know.
Cait (42:45)
Thank
Yeah.
Jenna G Judith (43:05)
It's like she took every aspect of your personality and your family dynamic and sprinkled it into a cast of characters, made some magic, and then told you it's fine to be mildly unhinged and okay.
Cait (43:18)
my gosh, and she does it so well. Like, I, it is just a masterclass on how to form family dynamics and novels. It is beautiful. You guys will love it. You are gonna love Claire. We are so excited to talk to her today. So, Claire's went out. We are so excited to talk to her today.
Jenna G Judith (43:37)
You
And if you haven't already, go buy her book. It debuted on Tuesday, May 5th and it is going to be what you want to read this summer. we're not, no one paid for this endorsement. This is simply because we care and we really enjoyed the book. So I, if you read it, let us know your favorite character amongst the cast of the entire family because
There's a lot of them and they're all pretty fun. So I'm personally gonna go with Hillary.
Ummm... I'm trying to think. What? Should we tighten the beginning?
Cait (44:17)
Yeah, what do you want to do?
Jenna G Judith (44:18)
Okay.
Let's do the the mom talk thing and then get into the...
maybe like have like a faster transition from like the mom talk to but what if someone wrote a book about it?
Cait (44:30)
Good, yeah, I can do that. Did you ever get into mom talk?
Jenna G Judith (44:31)
Okay, cool.
No, I have enough anxiety on my own.
Cait (44:38)
Right,
like it would make you feel even more inferior about your choices as a mom.
Jenna G Judith (44:44)
100%. Yeah, there's enough
in enough inside thoughts for that for one person
Cait (44:47)
Yeah, but I'm
obsessed with the drama. And now I wish I was kind of into it because like I really, I need to know like the ins and outs of like the mom influencer world, because there's so much going on. So I'm so glad somebody wrote a book about it.
Jenna G Judith (45:03)
And that person is Claire Swinarski and she wrote The Supper Club Saints and how we got her on the pod I don't know. it... Girl is just, she's a boss. She has written so many YA books. This is her second adult novel and she hit it out of the park. Like if you don't have this on your TBR for the summer, please go do it. Because it's good.
Cait (45:12)
Thank
Yeah, you guys will love it. will totally. I've just I've never felt more seen. I've never related to characters more as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter. It's all about family dynamics. And for writers like it's just a really it literally is a master class on writing families and how to have empathy. And it's wonderful. So we're so excited to have Claire on the pod today.
Jenna G Judith (45:53)
Yay Claire! Cheers!
Cool, cute. Yeah, I think that was good. Between the two, we will come up with something great. And then, I'm gonna stop recording.
